Suda showa for critique

[gcuss]

Originally Posted by Lam Nguyen

Furthermore, as Dick mentioned, it is desirable for the distance from the nose tip to the eye to be about 1.5 x the distance from the eyes to the gill plate. This koi has the reverse of that, that is the distance from the eye to the gill plate is 1.5 x the distance from the nose tip to the eyes. Also, as you mentioned earlier, the tail tube is not very large.

Lam,

Do you have any examples of a fish that exhibit this? Is it measured from the back of the gill plate? Or the start of the gill plate. I just looked at some extremely high priced/quality koi tosai and nisai (the holy crap, that's a mortgage type koi) and I haven't seen on example yet where it's hit this mark. The very closest I could tell was one shiro that was almost 50/50.

Thanks,

Grant

[koiczar]

First off, I know there's a lot of info out there touting the measurements from nose to eye and a ratio of that from eye to end of gill plate. So, I went out to my pond this afternoon and took a look at ALL my fish. Now, mind you, I don't spend 20k on fish, but I have spent several K on some.My largest is a 29" ake-yonsai from Matsunosuke. She was grown out last year in a very large mud pond and grew from 24" to 29" during last summer. So, she is no slouch when it comes to growth! Having said that and looking at several of my other "high priced" fish, I don't see this ratio of 1.5 times from eye to gill on ANY of my fish. I was also always told by an old breeder here in California, and several times since then, that the length of a fish should be 4.5 heads long. This does not include the tail! You'd really be hard pressed to find very many fish that are 5.5 times in length.

Lam

This fish that Ethan has posted is considered Tosai. It was born last year (probably spring), so it's just turning a year old. It is not ake-nisai until harvested at the end of the season. The Japanese will then call it nisai after this year's harvest, but in reality it would then be about 17-18 months old (on average).

Ethan

While I agree, this fish is VERY THIN! It has definitely been marked for export for quite awhile. If you can get some decent food into it and provide a good environment, I think it would be a fun fish to watch develop. Remember, however, that Showa usually take quite a while to really strut their stuff, so don't be impatient. Hang on to it for at least 2 years to see what's going on. Most people think the fish magically mature in a year and when things don't go the way they expect within that time, they unload the fish. If they have the ability to see that fish in another year's time, they're sometimes amazed at what has transpired. Then, they kick themselves for letting it go too soon, or worse, try to justify letting it go by thinking that it wouldn't have turned out that way in their pond anyway, or start thinking that there's something wrong with their water quality (which may or may not be the case). In any event, PATIENCE is the key word when growing fish out, especially showas.

Mike

[gcuss]

Wherever you see the Word "Grant" in Mike's message, insert "Ethan"

Originally Posted by koiczar

First off, I know there's a lot of info out there touting the measurements from nose to eye and a ratio of that from eye to end of gill plate. So, I went out to my pond this afternoon and took a look at ALL my fish. Now, mind you, I don't spend 20k on fish, but I have spent several K on some.My largest is a 29" ake-yonsai from Matsunosuke. She was grown out last year in a very large mud pond and grew from 24" to 29" during last summer. So, she is no slouch when it comes to growth! Having said that and looking at several of my other "high priced" fish, I don't see this ratio of 1.5 times from eye to gill on ANY of my fish. I was also always told by an old breeder here in California, and several times since then, that the length of a fish should be 4.5 heads long. This does not include the tail! You'd really be hard pressed to find very many fish that are 5.5 times in length.

Lam

This fish that Grant has posted is considered Tosai. It was born last year (probably spring), so it's just turning a year old. It is not ake-nisai until harvested at the end of the season. The Japanese will then call it nisai after this year's harvest, but in reality it would then be about 17-18 months old (on average).

Grant

While I agree, this fish is VERY THIN! It has definitely been marked for export for quite awhile. If you can get some decent food into it and provide a good environment, I think it would be a fun fish to watch develop. Remember, however, that Showa usually take quite a while to really strut their stuff, so don't be impatient. Hang on to it for at least 2 years to see what's going on. Most people think the fish magically mature in a year and when things don't go the way they expect within that time, they unload the fish. If they have the ability to see that fish in another year's time, they're sometimes amazed at what has transpired. Then, they kick themselves for letting it go too soon, or worse, try to justify letting it go by thinking that it wouldn't have turned out that way in their pond anyway, or start thinking that there's something wrong with their water quality (which may or may not be the case). In any event, PATIENCE is the key word when growing fish out, especially showas.

Mike

[koiczar]

Sorry Grant. I edited my post and changed the names to protect the innocent - my apologies!

Mike

[moikoi]

Lam
can that formula be use with any breeders and age of the fish?

[Ethan25]

:taking notes:

Thank you all for your comments. This is the best place to learn the solid facts. I'll post this fish other places to get nice, feel-good comments.



Ethan

[HEADACHE6]

Originally Posted by Ethan25

:taking notes:

This is the best place to learn the solid facts. I'll post this fish other places to get nice, feel-good comments.



Ethan

Hard to learn much from "Cute" etc. . I enjoy this "Facts" Forum .

When most talk about the possible future size of a Koi here , I think they are talking about getting a Koi to 30" . I don't think that is your goal is it ? I would guess you would be happy with a nice 24" Showa .

[Ethan25]

Originally Posted by HEADACHE6

Hard to learn much from "Cute" etc. . I enjoy this "Facts" Forum .

When most talk about the possible future size of a Koi here , I think they are talking about getting a Koi to 30" . I don't think that is your goal is it ? I would guess you would be happy with a nice 24" Showa .

Sure. My pond's depth is 4 feet max, and I don't have the room for a jumbo. As long as I get some good growth and am able to see how my water reacts with the development of a showa with good genes, I'll be content.

[Lam Nguyen]

Lam

This fish that Ethan has posted is considered Tosai. It was born last year (probably spring), so it's just turning a year old. It is not ake-nisai until harvested at the end of the season. The Japanese will then call it nisai after this year's harvest, but in reality it would then be about 17-18 months old (on average).

Hi Mike, after seeing your post I did some research and found the following just to make sure that I understand this concept:

Here is what Brian Sousa quoted in the thread "Nishikigoi Terminology":

After hatching and making through the period of being fry, koi younger than 12 months are referred to as tosai.

After 1 full year of life, they are called nisai. People here will refer to tosai that have overwintered and coming upon their first birthday in the springtime as "ake-nisai".

Also, here are Kenji Konishi's interpretation in the article Find Your Nisai: Part Two Showa & Sanke, which is found on page 39 of the latest issue of Nichirin:

Tosai: koi during its birth year (sometimes until early spring of the 2nd year)
Ake Nisai: from January to March of the 2nd year
Nisai: during the second year, which means about 7 months old to 19 months old.
Sansai: during the third year.

So here is how I would apply these terminologies to Ethan's koi: Since it was born in April/May of 2007, it is called an ake-nisai right now. Once it is past its 1st birthday (April/May 2008), then it would officially be called a nisai (I translate this as a koi that is in its 2nd growing season). It would be a nisai until April/May of 2009. But during the spring of 2009, even though it is a nisai, it can also be called an ake-sansai (I translate this as a koi that is heading into its third growing season).

I hope that I got this concept right and I hope to hear others' input on this topic.

[Lam Nguyen]

Originally Posted by gcuss

Lam,

Do you have any examples of a fish that exhibit this? Is it measured from the back of the gill plate? Or the start of the gill plate. I just looked at some extremely high priced/quality koi tosai and nisai (the holy crap, that's a mortgage type koi) and I haven't seen on example yet where it's hit this mark. The very closest I could tell was one shiro that was almost 50/50.

Thanks,

Grant

Hi Grant, I haven't had much time to look for a good example for you. Will search and post when I find a good example. Just wanted to let you know that I haven't forgotten about this.