Which would you choose? - Page 2 - Koi Forum - Koi-Bito Magazine

gspotmc · 2 Weeks Ago

TOSAI'S ARE ALWAYS A GAMBLE. i AGREE WITH MIKE M GET THE INSURANCE.

dick benbow · 2 Weeks Ago

actually you can't afford not to take advantage of the insurance offer. In the short time that this program has been offered I know of several who have had their "bacon" saved! LOL! I wouldn't consider getting one without it!

gcuss · 2 Weeks Ago

It's a go then. I will definately get the insurance, and if something goes haywire, I'm certain I'll have no difficulty picking something else.

**twisting hands together** "Now, which one.... "

Grant

dick benbow · 2 Weeks Ago

so you looked at #30 and said to yourself...who's he kidding. It's got no pattern, there's no white etc etc etc. When you see the koi 3 years from now it'll be shock and awe. ( hey don't laugh it worked for george) alright, take the shock part out and just leave the awe.......

MikeM · 2 Weeks Ago

Dick, we spend so much teaching the importance of pattern for judging tosai, it really gets hard for folks to look past it. (Myself included!) Then there is my weakness for 'a pretty face'. I may get myself to look past the pattern generally, but a pretty face always draws me back.

dick benbow · 2 Weeks Ago

I understand Mike. It's not easy, it's a learned taste.
Since your our resident showa man, you have a feeling for the importance of beni and the efforts made to constantly bring it upgraded with kohaku. Yet the black was also upgraded with sanke. Lots of confusing genes out there right now.
I think an easier concept to grasp about pattern is that big heavy ugly ones on tosai are something they can grow into and can look quite nice on a big fish. check out #30 and see if you don't get the feel by the head and nose to dorsal length that this has potential to get big.

gcuss · 2 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by dick benbow

so you looked at #30 and said to yourself...who's he kidding. It's got no pattern, there's no white etc etc etc. When you see the koi 3 years from now it'll be shock and awe. ( hey don't laugh it worked for george) alright, take the shock part out and just leave the awe.......

Ok, here's what I saw.

Big head.
Very nice moto guro in the future perhaps
Clean lead rays on pec fins
Nice sized pec fins
Head into body 3.5 times, but more than likely the angle of the photo
Shiroji creeping up like a two pronged fork on both sides of the body near the brilliant white dorsal fin.(at least the front 2/3 of dorsal fin) which says to me this may turn into a nice 2 or 3 step in the future as this koi grows.
Take away the black - you've got a bold kohaku pattern that will work on a potentially big fish
Take away the beni - you've got a decent shiro utsuri pattern there.
Beni comes down far enough on the head that I would hope you'd avoid a bald head as the fish grows.
Decent odome already. I believe the color in the base of the tail isn't there to stay. (no sound logic why I think this, just a beginner's hunch)
Sumi down deep on the nose, and some on the lip. Strong sumi in this fish.
And what shiroji is already present is really nice and clean.

That about sums up my thoughts when I looked at her sir!

Quite the opposite of what you may have thought... I think this one may be a real winner. (no offense to those who have an opinion based on real logic and experience intended... just sharing my thoughts)

Grant

MikeM · 2 Weeks Ago

Yep, Dick. Like Grant observes, the photo angle has to be remembered. The Beni appears to be very good. #30 has a large koi bone structure and a big fish pattern. The white inserts will relieve the monotony when the fish grows.

I got a modestly priced tosai Showa from NKF in 2006. She is about 25" now. Her best feature is the Beni. Very even and solid orange-red. The Beni keeps improving as she grows. She does not have the higher quality Sumi that #30 appears to have. The Sumi on mine is too thin for a show judge to evaluate her highly. But, in the pond swimming a foot down, the Sumi appears as thick as could ever be desired. So, she makes a fine impression on folks. It will have to be a very good Showa to take her place in the pond. That's because of the Beni, not the Sumi. (And, she has a pretty face.

)

When I got the group of 5 Showa from Brady in 2005, I asked him to supply different types of Sumi. It was wonderful to watch how they developed. You may remember, however, that what ended up being the real focus was the Beni. There were several types in the mix Brady provided. He supplied a real education with that mix. The better the Beni, the better the overall beauty of the Showa. There are innumerable 'genetic mixes' of Hi around, of course. One is not necessarily better than another. It is the thickness and stability of the pigment that matters most. It takes a while to appreciate that. All the dramatic black markings on Showa create the special atmosphere only Showa have. But that really does not matter unless the red provides the backdrop.

Maybe I'll get another Showa.

dick benbow · 2 Weeks Ago

thanks Grant and Mike for your comments. I do believe this will be one of the biggest showa in the growout results. And i also believe it was be impressive as it creeps over the two foot length.

I sure do love my kohaku I got back from nisei this spring. She's a really nice koi. I wanted her the moment I saw her but she got gobbled up before mat and i could talk. fortunately for me she became available the following year. ( gotta love that trade em in feature for any reason )

One of the most incredible sanke I ever saw came from Mat's effort with the "borrowed" magoi bloodline sanke parent.

2 Weeks Ago	#16 (permalink)
dick benbow Honmei Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 4,171	I understand Mike. It's not easy, it's a learned taste. Since your our resident showa man, you have a feeling for the importance of beni and the efforts made to constantly bring it upgraded with kohaku. Yet the black was also upgraded with sanke. Lots of confusing genes out there right now. I think an easier concept to grasp about pattern is that big heavy ugly ones on tosai are something they can grow into and can look quite nice on a big fish. check out #30 and see if you don't get the feel by the head and nose to dorsal length that this has potential to get big. __________________ Dick Benbow "The Koi Coach" http://www.dickbenbow.com/ Last edited by dick benbow; 2 Weeks Ago at 10:23 AM. Reason: typo

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2 Weeks Ago	#11 (permalink)
gspotmc Jumbo Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Walnut, Ca Posts: 811	TOSAI'S ARE ALWAYS A GAMBLE. i AGREE WITH MIKE M GET THE INSURANCE.

2 Weeks Ago	#12 (permalink)
dick benbow Honmei Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 4,171	actually you can't afford not to take advantage of the insurance offer. In the short time that this program has been offered I know of several who have had their "bacon" saved! LOL! I wouldn't consider getting one without it!

2 Weeks Ago	#13 (permalink)
gcuss Sansai Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 162	It's a go then. I will definately get the insurance, and if something goes haywire, I'm certain I'll have no difficulty picking something else. twisting hands together "Now, which one.... " Grant

2 Weeks Ago	#14 (permalink)
dick benbow Honmei Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 4,171	so you looked at #30 and said to yourself...who's he kidding. It's got no pattern, there's no white etc etc etc. When you see the koi 3 years from now it'll be shock and awe. ( hey don't laugh it worked for george) alright, take the shock part out and just leave the awe.......

2 Weeks Ago	#15 (permalink)
MikeM Honmei Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Orlando, Florida Posts: 4,658	Dick, we spend so much teaching the importance of pattern for judging tosai, it really gets hard for folks to look past it. (Myself included!) Then there is my weakness for 'a pretty face'. I may get myself to look past the pattern generally, but a pretty face always draws me back.

2 Weeks Ago	#18 (permalink)
MikeM Honmei Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Orlando, Florida Posts: 4,658	Yep, Dick. Like Grant observes, the photo angle has to be remembered. The Beni appears to be very good. #30 has a large koi bone structure and a big fish pattern. The white inserts will relieve the monotony when the fish grows. I got a modestly priced tosai Showa from NKF in 2006. She is about 25" now. Her best feature is the Beni. Very even and solid orange-red. The Beni keeps improving as she grows. She does not have the higher quality Sumi that #30 appears to have. The Sumi on mine is too thin for a show judge to evaluate her highly. But, in the pond swimming a foot down, the Sumi appears as thick as could ever be desired. So, she makes a fine impression on folks. It will have to be a very good Showa to take her place in the pond. That's because of the Beni, not the Sumi. (And, she has a pretty face. ) When I got the group of 5 Showa from Brady in 2005, I asked him to supply different types of Sumi. It was wonderful to watch how they developed. You may remember, however, that what ended up being the real focus was the Beni. There were several types in the mix Brady provided. He supplied a real education with that mix. The better the Beni, the better the overall beauty of the Showa. There are innumerable 'genetic mixes' of Hi around, of course. One is not necessarily better than another. It is the thickness and stability of the pigment that matters most. It takes a while to appreciate that. All the dramatic black markings on Showa create the special atmosphere only Showa have. But that really does not matter unless the red provides the backdrop. Maybe I'll get another Showa.

2 Weeks Ago	#19 (permalink)
dick benbow Honmei Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 4,171	thanks Grant and Mike for your comments. I do believe this will be one of the biggest showa in the growout results. And i also believe it was be impressive as it creeps over the two foot length. I sure do love my kohaku I got back from nisei this spring. She's a really nice koi. I wanted her the moment I saw her but she got gobbled up before mat and i could talk. fortunately for me she became available the following year. ( gotta love that trade em in feature for any reason ) One of the most incredible sanke I ever saw came from Mat's effort with the "borrowed" magoi bloodline sanke parent.