Worth another year or not???

[PapaBear]

These are a few tosai we're trying to decide what to do with. Grow on another year, or sell off at auction. No illusions about show time for them, just wondering if they're good enough to learn from as decent pond fish.
BTW, if you haven't figured it out by now HONESTY will not hurt my feelings

First an 11 mo old Ochiba. Do you think time will clean it up???




Then the Bekko in this pic, also 11 mo old. I like the skin and sumi quality, but I'm still not sure about it.

[JasPR]

If you are trading up, personally I'd get rid of the ochiba and keep the bekko for now.

I say that because the current ochiba 'bar' has been lifted and there is a lot more expected of pattern ( as kohaku is now being used to make this fish) and the pattern is very poor on this specimen. Even if the base were to clean up and lighten ( which is not the normal progression of things in soragoi) the pattern will not as it is already broken up in areas. Nice shape to it though.

The bekko does has nice sumi! And good clear transparent skin as a youngster/good luster content. A bit chubby/short maybe, but basically a nice fish.

But this really all depends on what you are keeping them for ultimately over the next year or two? If you mean for show, then the Bekko is a 'now fish' and sunlights' burn'n!! In other words- Get her done! No one can predict 'past sell date' for sure ( except the breeder who saw the fish in stages- I assume you bred these koi? ) , but we can all see a fish coming to a peak!
The ochiba , on the other hand, is just not a show fish at all , now or in the future.

Of course if you don't want to show fish then really it is all your call and we have no say as to what you like? IMHO, JR

[PapaBear]

Well JR, I'm at least glad to know I was already on the same page as you... I must be making progress These are a few of our homegrowns, and they've been kept as a part of a larger learning lab for the past year.
The Ochiba definitely has some ups and downs to it. It has grown very well and has plenty of potential from that angle, but the markings definitely have a lot of demerits to them. Having no hands on with the variety, either the old style gray and tea color or the newer kohaku lines, I wanted to get some insight on the way the more primitive look developed over time.

The Bekko is probably the best overall quality wise of the bunch. Like you say, the finish is definitely here today, and may well be gone tomorrow. We'll probably take it out for a test drive at the club exhibition later this month so we can get some up close and personal critiques from some of the other members. I'm lucky to have some pretty sharp cookies in Oklahoma to help guide me along the way... (Besides, I like going to the Down's place just to visit them and their mud pond and all)

[JasPR]

Hey, nice job on the bekko, then! It is one of those varieties that is quite beautiful in it's simplicity.
I remember when the Isreali first bred koi, they had good luck early on making bekkos but never could get a handle on kohaku ( beni complexity or bulk in the bodies). One of the most beautiful bekkos I ever saw was owned by a Japanese hobbyist. I'll see if I can get a picture of that one up. A beautiful animal that really silienced those that looked at bekko as a sanke cull only until that point!

The old style ochiba is conceptually like the Harawaki. That is, a Harawaki was made from a solid white platinum fish crossed with a solid yellow fish to create a 'half & half" platinum and yellow fish. You then cull to create an impression of pattern. Note: this is what makes kikusui ( which is a true patterned fish) very different from hawiwaki.
The newer versions of ochiba are very different in that a strong dorsal pattern is transferred onto a solid colored fish. Culling tightens up this impression as well but the basic dorsal pattern is a transfer. If you use or obtain a large kohaku pattern it tends to look more like a traditional type only two 'good things' happen, the pattern is more defined and of a redder color but also of a greater luster. The skin itself seems lighter and brighter and not as heavy a look.
As much as this has to be seen as progress, I do miss the look of ochiba as an ogon type body. It is definitely loosing this ogon atmosphere in the average production fish of this modern cross. - JR

[PapaBear]

I know what you mean about the Ochiba. I fell in love with the "Fallen Leaves" look early on, but have never been able to get my hands on one. The newer style definitely has a nice flavor of its own, but the older look has a very primal beauty to it the new ones lack.

[Ethan25]

Bekko does look the best right now as improvement isn't necessary to make it look great. I really like the Ochiba, especially the body shape. Looks like it has a lot of potential to be a jumbo. What do the parents look like? Was this a flock spawn or planned?

Wish I was at your auction. I'd bid on the ochiba.

[PapaBear]

Ethan,
It was a flock spawn (they jumped the gun on us), but with limited possibilities for fatherhood.
The mother on both was our Kin Aka Bekko. Fathers were either one of our Kohaku's or a Shiro Bekko. Really hard to be certain as the Bekko male has Purachina type skin, weak sumi, and a weak yellow hariwake pattern as well...
The two Kohaku males both have solid genetics and very nice white shiroji from head to tail, so on the bekko I'm thinking one of them is more likely. The Ochiba is from more primitive genetics, so I'm leaning toward the Bekko as the more likely father.

[gcuss]

I've been following your thread on the other board, and wow, it's been educational!

I'd keep all but the kohaku tancho from the first shot. I think the sumi is interesting to watch, and being that sumi is so tough to predict... good value for learning when the price of feed/bio load is considered.

I don't think I'd hold on to the ochiba, might be the picture, but the skin looks quite dull. My guess is it's downhill from here.

And finally, you didn't post it, but I hang on to the "Showa Wannabe" cuz he's just so damn interesting.

Thank you for taking the time to post all the photos, extremely interesting.

Grant

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by gcuss I've been following your thread on the other board, and wow, it's been educational! I'd keep all but the kohaku tancho from the first shot. I think the sumi is interesting to watch, and being that sumi is so tough to predict... good value for learning when the price of feed/bio load is considered. I don't think I'd hold on to the ochiba, might be the picture, but the skin looks quite dull. My guess is it's downhill from here. And finally, you didn't post it, but I hang on to the "Showa Wannabe" cuz he's just so damn interesting. Thank you for taking the time to post all the photos, extremely interesting. Grant

Thanks for the feedback, and I do plan to keep the "showawannabe" just to see what happens with it.

For those of you who haven't a clue what Grant is talking about, I've had a long running thread over at KP tracking the growth and development of a sampling of fry we hung on to from last years spawn. I retained good, bad, and everything in between to track how good gets better and bad gets worse. Here's a pic of the Showannabe he's talking about. Damned interesting fish up close, so I plan to give it time just for the sake of my own education and amusement

From a few months ago.


Last week (along with one of the mutt uglies...).