want to learn more about conformation...

[Lam Nguyen]

Hi Ethan, just thought I would share with you that this 4.5 x headlength is just a guidance and not a hard fact rule. In fact, I suspect that, while this is a good guidance for beginners, the professionals don't even use this guidance to select tosai as they have looked at so many koi daily and know what or what not to look for. I learned this during my Tosai Selection class w/Dick Benbow a couple of months ago and he has also written about this in the latest issue of KN.

Here is what I have gathered, and I hope that those with much more knowledge than me can correct me or give additional input:

1. It's not 5.5 x head length but 4.5 x head length (a head length is from the tip of the nose to the ver end of the gill plate).

2. The 4.5 x head length includes the head.

3. The 4.5 x head length rule applies only to tosai (as koi grow the head ratio changes).

4. This guidance should be applied to koi that you look at in person, not from images as I have learned that images can be distorted.

I hope that this helps and I would love to show you in person. If you have a chance, Ethan, I recommend that you attend one of Dick's Tosai Selection seminar as I learned so much from that event. Anyways, if you have any more questions, please feel free to ask or PM me.

[Ethan25]

Originally Posted by Lam Nguyen

Hi Ethan, just thought I would share with you that this 4.5 x headlength is just a guidance and not a hard fact rule. In fact, I suspect that, while this is a good guidance for beginners, the professionals don't even use this guidance to select tosai as they have looked at so many koi daily and know what or what not to look for. I learned this during my Tosai Selection class w/Dick Benbow a couple of months ago and he has also written about this in the latest issue of KN.

Here is what I have gathered, and I hope that those with much more knowledge than me can correct me or give additional input:

1. It's not 5.5 x head length but 4.5 x head length (a head length is from the tip of the nose to the ver end of the gill plate).

2. The 4.5 x head length includes the head.

3. The 4.5 x head length rule applies only to tosai (as koi grow the head ratio changes).

4. This guidance should be applied to koi that you look at in person, not from images as I have learned that images can be distorted.

I hope that this helps and I would love to show you in person. If you have a chance, Ethan, I recommend that you attend one of Dick's Tosai Selection seminar as I learned so much from that event. Anyways, if you have any more questions, please feel free to ask or PM me.

OK, that makes more sense. Otherwise we'd be looking at very snakey koi. It makes sense about the images as well. As one takes a picture from up front, the tail area is smaller in proportion to the head area since the camera is closer to the head area. I wish I could make it out to Oregon for one of the seminars, as I know you are both out that way. I grew up on the southern Oregon coast and haven't been back since I was 10.

So, younger fish (tosai specifically) look for a lengthy body, and as the fish grows, the proportions should change.

[MikeM]

Keep in mind that there are several aspects to conformation. The discussion thus far has only touched on one factor. At its heart, it is about conforming to the ideal body of a koi. The first level is 'simply' conforming to the basic physical attributes of a koi... fins, barbels, etc. in the right place. Then comes proportions... fins the proper size in relation to the body, head size appropriate for the length and bulk of the fish. Often conformation gets used to refer to 'big' or 'volume'. The more the better?....No. A koi can be big and have incredible volume, but be poor in conformation. A sloppy-bodied koi does not have good conformation no matter how big it may be.

It is also important to keep in mind that conformation in the context of judging at a show is not the same as in the context of selecting a koi to grow on. The ideal show body in a nisai may well make the nisai undesirable for the person looking for a koi that will have excellent conformation at age 7. If the goal is a long, high volume koi at age 7, the desired conformation as nisai is more likely to be relatively thin, because the goal calls for growth in length. Volume comes later. Such a koi can be considered to have poor conformation for show, but be described as having excellent conformation for the future. If the goal is a koi that lives to age 25, you might never want to see the type of volume typical of the highest ranked koi at the top Japanese shows. But, you would like to see the bone structure and musculature that could accomodate such volume if the fish was fed to create it.

As you read about conformation and listen to people talk about conformation, keep in mind the different contexts in which the word gets used. And, keep in mind that somebody tossing around the word a lot does not necessarily know what they are talking about, or may confuse you because they use the term in different contexts in the same conversation. It can be discouraging. Hang in. The concepts will come together as you see more and more koi.

[luke frisbee]

Originally Posted by MikeM

Keep in mind that there are several aspects to conformation. The discussion thus far has only touched on one factor. At its heart, it is about conforming to the ideal body of a koi. The first level is 'simply' conforming to the basic physical attributes of a koi... fins, barbels, etc. in the right place. Then comes proportions... fins the proper size in relation to the body, head size appropriate for the length and bulk of the fish. Often conformation gets used to refer to 'big' or 'volume'. The more the better?....No. A koi can be big and have incredible volume, but be poor in conformation. A sloppy-bodied koi does not have good conformation no matter how big it may be.

It is also important to keep in mind that conformation in the context of judging at a show is not the same as in the context of selecting a koi to grow on. The ideal show body in a nisai may well make the nisai undesirable for the person looking for a koi that will have excellent conformation at age 7. If the goal is a long, high volume koi at age 7, the desired conformation as nisai is more likely to be relatively thin, because the goal calls for growth in length. Volume comes later. Such a koi can be considered to have poor conformation for show, but be described as having excellent conformation for the future. If the goal is a koi that lives to age 25, you might never want to see the type of volume typical of the highest ranked koi at the top Japanese shows. But, you would like to see the bone structure and musculature that could accomodate such volume if the fish was fed to create it.

As you read about conformation and listen to people talk about conformation, keep in mind the different contexts in which the word gets used. And, keep in mind that somebody tossing around the word a lot does not necessarily know what they are talking about, or may confuse you because they use the term in different contexts in the same conversation. It can be discouraging. Hang in. The concepts will come together as you see more and more koi.

MikeM,
you always say things the nicest way they can be said.
Damn you..I mean um..well... yeah that's what I meant....

[aquitori]

Originally Posted by Ethan25

So, from tip of nose to beginning of tail, what type of headlength are we looking for? Still 5? It'd seem that'd be a skinny odd looking koi in that case. Aren't most nice koi's caudal fins around 1 headlength?

There are other factors to this ratio thingy...I would say 4-4.5 ratio is what you should look for. 5 is too long for me, plus later in development the head just looks to small in the end...