Victim... less

[gcuss]

For some reason I'm unable to post photos on the site. My computer is a Mac, and the wife uses a Windows machine, but neither can post. I went back and deleted most of the old post attachments in case I was near capacity, but nothing changed. I pm'd J. North but haven't heard back from him yet.

Anyway... I actually came up with two Sanke's.

#2 and #44

I like the confirmation in #2 but I think the pattern is extremely unbalanced.

I think that #44 is far superior in both confirmation and pattern. Really nice orange/red beni, great shiroji and looks like some well place sumi to come.

Anyway, if you guys can put pictures up, I would appreciate it. As would others looking to grab some more learning from this thread!!

Thanks again, for all the help.

Grant

[dick benbow]

thank-you for selecting your two sanke's to initiate the conversation. Maybe the fact you can't post the pictures is a Karma thing to make more people go to Mat's website..

I can see how you would look at the pattern of # 2 and not see what is there. Your other selection is a very safe "bet" as you can see the beni and white pattern and have a pretty safe idea where the black will develop. It is a nice koi and will make someone very happy.
But let's look at #2, the beni is not as orange and opaque, the black is not really up and the white is different than the other one. It;s rather an ugly duckling would you say? But the beauty of this koi is that in a few short years you will understand what quality is all about.

To the japanese this koi is easily recognized for the pattern it will display as adult. We westerners look at the beni as the pattern the black as the highlight and the white as the solid
background. the japanese look at a koi like this and see the red and black as a balanced pattern set on a white platform. As we look at #2 we see red on the koi's right side with a ginormous void of white. But a strong saddle black will fill it and complete the balance. This and the white shoulders and jaunty head cap classically offset on the fishes head will make this koi so much more memorable in pattern. BUT that's not what this koi is all about. Study the look of all three colors and remember what they look like because this fish reeks of quality
and the older it gets the more you'll be able to see it.

I think a person color blind might have a better understanding of the balance of a pattern uninhibited by color.

[Lam Nguyen]

Hi Grant, you might want to reduce the size of the images of the koi. I usually open the koi images in Adobe Photoshop and edit the size to reduce the number of pixels. anyways, hope this helps.

[jnorth]

Glad you were able to get some koi from Quality . See Brians stickied post about the site.

[gcuss]

Well, here are the photos (through no small effort on Brian's part)

Grant

[MikeM]

Grant, I can understand why #44 would seem bland now. This type of Beni begins as a yellow-orange color. As it slowly consolidates, it becomes more orange. As nisai, it will be a reddish orange. By sansai, it will become intensely saturated in color. Then it reddens until it is red-orange. It is a durable, slow developing Beni that reaches its peak after several years. It grows with the fish. As for pattern, it is going to be grand. Notice the insert of white behind the dorsal. The Beni pattern reminds me of a plume from a volcano rising into the sky. I would name her (?) Kajigumo. The Sumi will come. Right now there are hints of it rising at strategic points in the shiroji. If this is female, she has the makings to be awesome... if everything comes together. If not, she will be merely beautiful.

I think Dick has said what counts on #2. The Beni is very immature, so don't worry about the mottled look of it. The quality is there. The pattern is what will throw you off. Notice again that there will be white inserts toward the rear. And black does balance red in Sanke, like Dick said. In a very recent issue of Nichirin there is a photo of the Reserve GC Sanke at a Japanese show. The entire right side of the fish from the start of the dorsal to the caudal fin has no red. The left side is heavily red. As tosai it would have looked more unbalanced than #2 (and some of the others listed) if only the red is weighed. But, that Reserve GC has heavy Sumi on its right side and not so much Sumi on the left. She is drop dead gorgeous. (I'd post photo, but have the same problem others have been encountering.) So, when you have a tosai Sanke from a line that tends to produce slow developing Sumi, as is the case with Sakai (Isawa) magoi line Sanke, and you see high quality in the skin and pigments, it becomes a bit of a gamble whether the Sumi will come in where it sets off the whole fish. With #2, the gamble is not so much. The Sumi patch showing now is going to provide balance. It is a question of personal taste when it comes to big, bold Sumi on Sanke. What I can tell you is that it will be 2 more growing seasons before you really 'know' (if it is truly possible 'to know')about where the Sumi will be on this fish, but it is very likely that bold patch will be there. The Sumi on these magoi-line Sanke is very intense when mature, like what I imagine it is like for an astronomer to look into a black hole. .... If the sumi does not come up in places that provide balance, there may be disappointment. (I say 'may', because the skin quality and porcelain-like shiroji may eliminate the disappointment of even a pattern fancier.) If the sumi comes in to provide that balance, then you have a very impressive Sanke.

Tosai are always a gamble. Typically, the odds are 95% against you... koi sold as tosai are not likely to turn into much. The difference with these 2 tosai is that they normally would not be sold as tosai. Of course, if anyone could know for certain that everything would come together perfectly, then you'd have to add a zero to the price.

[gcuss]

Fantastic input from both Mike and Dick.

Mike, a number of times you've made reference that you cant normally buy fish like this as tosai out of Japan. Is that to say that in Japan, this caliber of fish would be retained and perhaps sold off as Nisei? If so, does Matt do it as part of being a new and upcoming domestic farm, and he's trying to get his name out? Or is he breeding so many good quality fish that he can afford to let these go and still retain enough high quality tosai to grow out for another year?

Anyways.....

Koi are wonderful in that how each time you manage to get lucky and truly grasp a piece of knowledge, your ability to appreciate what you're looking at increases.

In looking again at both of these fish with the input from Mike and Dick, I was able to see a whole bunch of things that I didn't notice before. 44 truly is amazing to look at.

I'm wondering, in revisiting the pictures, does anyone else feel that 44's pec fins might appear to be a tad on the small side? Or is it just the transparent quality of that bright shiroji fooling the eyes?

Thanks again guys, the education is wonderful.

*** Hopefully get my new filters constructed today. I LOVE building/designing stuff for my pond.

Grant

[MikeM]

Grant: These would not be imported from Japan because by the time a dealer covered costs and added a mark-up, the market of potential buyers is too small. So, dealers are not going to even try to buy them. The 'jumbo tosai' grown to 12" or more is where the Japanese breeders have found a market, but the pricing is $1,000 and up at the U.S. dealer. Tosai in the 7-8" size range do not sell well, except in the low priced end of the market. So, the breeder isn't going to let them go. He can get the higher price after they put on some size. You'd really have to ask Mat why he sells these. I'd guess there are several factors. One is simply to get some excitement going about what they are doing at NKF. Another is to hook some folks on getting better quality koi. Once you move up a notch, it is really tough to go backward on quality. Third, the pricing is not cheap. (Fair IMO, but not cheap.)Revenue in the door rather than value in a pond. I can't recall a local grocery excepting a bag of fingerlings at the check-out. Fourth, they sell thousands upon thousands of lower end tosai in bulk, but the idea behind NKF is to emulate the Japanese approach to culling/selection. Gotta build customer base and overcome the anti-domestic bias to support such an effort. Fifth, don't get the idea that Mat is selling off everything worth having. They have picked just 55 tosai for this. There are others you'll not see posted anywhere. They will be sold as nisai. The very best will some day be available for purchase, but in the 'price of a new car' range? Not many potential customers for domestic koi priced over $4,000. So, gotta move what you can when you can, and build the reputation, hook customers, etc., etc. It's not a business where you can warehouse inventory for very long. It's win-win for the patient hobbyist & the breeder. [The impatient hobbyist should check out the Japanese imports priced under $50. After a dozen of them prove to be a flash in the pan, then the value of patience is understood.]

[dick benbow]

, couldn't have said it better, myself......

[MikeM]

Actually, Dick, I think you did.... you just used different words when you were explaining the koi business to me. .