THoughts on this matsuba

[JasPR]

Ok, I will be the bad guy once again -----

Ethan, the head on this fish is not good. Those deep creases in the head and the shadow are signs of what is called tarnish on the metallic varieties. It is THE most common fault and renders show fish worthless over time. Most metallics get this to a degree and it is hard to find an adult kujaku for instance without any tarnish at all unless the head is white and then you have a real loss of luster cells that makes the skin shine.
For $100 the fish is not bad, a little high but still not outrageously priced for it's size. But do not think the fish has a future as a show fish or that the head will clear up with age. On that promise they are dreaming or fibbing. Best of luck. JR

Here's what a clean head will look like---

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ethan25 It's kindof the better lookin cousin of my avatar mutt, eh?... Ethan

That would be an understatement
Like I said, not picture perfect and as JR and Troy pointed out the head has issues not likely to clear up much if at all, but it is still a decent fish for the money. Watching the way the color develops as it matures will also teach you a lot about your water. Ours builds sumi like mad, but Ki anything seem to go hard and splotchy. Learning what different varieties and skin types will tend to do in your pond will prove valuable as you make new purchases down the road.

[JasPR]

well learning with DIFFERENT grades of carp, colored carp, colored koi and nishikigoi ( as defined by Japanese varieties) is VERY educational. But keeping and gazing at low grade koi over and over will teach you very very little. The reason is, you have no reference point for learning. That is exactly why a koi show is so educational, especially if you have entered your best and now can gauge that opinion against other 'best fish'.
Koi do not have mixed grades of skin. They have elements of skin in mixed combinations.
When you see a good koi for the first time ( not a picture, but the fish) you instantly know that something is 'different' about the fish.
I agree that it is nice and kind to pretend and encourage beginners. But there is a point where it becomes both cruel and condescending to stress the imaginary positive traits just for the kumbaya moment or appear to be a kindly guy or gal. ( not saying you are doing that Larry, but I have seen this method from time to time on the various boards)
Although it is true that almost all koi have some redeeming aspect, even it is just robust health, it is wrong to discuss a future for many fish, as it simple is not true. Fish of certain varieties with inferior skin and color traits will , without fail- fail . Not all koi improve- in fact 80% - 90% do not. And based on variety ( ginrin, all metallics, most asagi, most goshiki) many are destine to have a very rapid decline as they pass sexual maturity and reach age 5-6. This is both the heart break of the ‘cut flower’ and the challenge of picking the right koi and rasing it well. But in the end it is down to genetic realities.
High end show fish are what support the price for koi. If a high end fish can fetch $25,000 based on supply and demand , then ‘lesser’ koi can be priced off of that isolated sale. As you move down in show grades, the price falls.
But we have come to a place where the emperor truly has no clothes! A junk fish is of no real value. Certainly the 'resale' on even moderate past sell date show fish is shocking and a rude awakening! ( I currently have a friend who paid $70,000 for a high end fish and is being offered $5000 for it now!).
In the wholesale domestic and import market in the pet/tropical fish trade, shiro muji, weak patterned kohaku, ginrins, asgai and metallics cost $3- $6 each. This is what the pet trade pays for them. One in ten is actually OK and referred to as 'specials'. Never show grade, mind you, but adequate representation of some variety. Bekko, purachina, asagi, ginrin and hariwaki being the most common. But these fish will not last as the skin grade is wrong, and the colors are not stable.
The point I’m making here is these grades of fish should not be priced from the top down with $25,000 being the top. But rather priced from the bottom up with recognizable varieties seeking a premium above their poor brothers and sisters. The consumer is confused about this and predatory business types are taking full advantage of all the emperors with no clothes on.
If I wanted a pond grade purachina I would go to the wholesalers and buy 6 'specials' at $6 each and give away the worst after one growing season. The remaining one or two then would have cost $36 for one or $18 each if two remained. Since the pet trade retail will mark the same specials to 12.99 to 34.99 I'm still ahead and I have gotten to cull a set of six. If you are culling six over time, what you d learn is not how this grade improves but how koi fail. I suppose that is worth something. - JR

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR ...If you are culling six over time, what you d learn is not how this grade improves but how koi fail. I suppose that is worth something. - JR

How wonderfully true that is (all of it) but this statement in particular rings so very true for me right now.
We've had several spawns over the past few years and of course could not resist trying our hand at growing a few out just to see what would happen. The first one happened only about a month after we got our very first Koi and you could have fit all we knew about Koi in a thimble with plenty of room to spare. We gave hundreds away but kept a dozen or so we thought were "pretty". The ones we had the highest hopes for almost all went completely to crap within the first year, and most of the others followed suit the next... but we learned something from it nonetheless.
Fast forward to last year. From that spawn we also kept around 100, gave many away, and kept about 40 to watch go up or down as a test of our progress in seeing fish as either good or bad early on. Obviously we got a lot more junk than anything else, but we intentionally kept the best and the worst to reinforce the education. It has been a very fun experiment to say the least, and I'm happy to say that this time our predictions have been about 90% on the money, which is a complete reversal from the past.
There truly is no substitute for seeing the difference up close and personal...

[d_mer]

I really liked this thread. Ive got a lit of info from it. I think the koi for 100.00 is a nice looking one, but Im still just a year into koi keeping and cant see me spending 100.00 on anything yet. I dont know how to pick the best koi, I just go for what I enjoy looking at. Im sure that will change as I learn more...

[KoiCop]

Not mentioned (but critical) is that the whole concept of 'good learning from bad fish' presupposes a pond that doesn't drag even good fish down.

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop Not mentioned (but critical) is that the whole concept of 'good learning from bad fish' presupposes a pond that doesn't drag even good fish down.

Troy and I sorta touched on that up front with the "cull the crapagoi first" suggestion, but it is a good point worth repeating.

[MikeM]

JR: Yes, yes, yes. And, learning how koi fail is a worthy corollary to learning what to select for. Eventually we learn that metallics tarnish, Asagi darken, etc., but most often it sinks in only as a consequence of the failures.

[JasPR]

Hey, I just stopped at petsmart this morning ( a local chain out here, a lot like Petco ) to buy some frozen brine for my tropicals and marines. And they had an Impressive selection of very low quality koi! In truth, many were what I would call colored carp more than koi ( which I tend to think of as nishikigoi). Of all of them, and I've observed and mentioned this before, the best representatives of a known variety were - Bekko & longfin purachina ( but for the deformed faces that were turned under).
At any rate, I have to say the water looked good ( not cloudy or organically a mess). And the fish were in very good condition/health. The longfins cost more than the 'koi'. $4 - $14.

I tried to imagine if I bought the entire stock, if I could hope to learn anything? I found I was dividing the patterned fish from the solid fish, and except for the bekko, the rest were on the verge of 'failure' at only 5- 7 inches and in a juvenile stage of development. The bekko looked like a few would have a shot at deeper surface sumi and had the very classic whiter skin that both bekko and Goromo are typically born with. but the skin was wrong- bright hard white and very thin density ( but they WERE young).
If you go to the big wholesalers of koi and longfins in the tropical fish trade- the koi there, mostly come from the South of the USA, Taiwan, Thailand, Korea, China. These are mass production countries/facilities- very professional in some cases but of the group, only the Taiwanese and Koreans have much of a handle on gosanke. I have gone and scraped this stock at the import facilities and I have to say, they are mostly clear except for the fish coming up from the south of our own country. In those I have found the 'hat trick'- trichodina, ich, costia on a regular basis- the slides are quite impressive in both numbers and varieties!
As for deformities, the rate is very high and you can see them well when the fish are in aquariums ( better than from above, this is why it is a good ideas to examine all purchases in the bag by holding it up to the light). The longfins today all had fin deformities. I'd say about 10% of the koi had head and/or mouth deformities.
It was a very interesting experience. I can't say I learned anything or that by raising these fish I would learn anything. But I did have some opinions re-enforced. JR

[MikeM]

JR: I think you moved ahead of pet shop koi more than a few years ago. I'm sure you've heard more than one story of a pet shop complaining they got a shipment of those unsalable red & white koi instead of metallics and gin rin. And 2" ones sell better than 7" ones that tear up the plastic plants in a 15 gallon aquarium. Some breeders/wholesalers just can't be relied upon to ship good merchandise.