Koi Dealer Etiquette

[gspotmc]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nancy M. When we go to Japan to purchase fish, we always bargain on the price of a fish. We always get prices and then bargain. After that we find another we really like and ask the price. Then if we really want both we bargain on a package deal. The more fish we put into the package the better price we get. I have even bargained in Japan, when purchasing a 3 or 4 year old fish, to get "my pick" of a two year old for free.. Same holds true for buying from local dealers, package deals are the way to go. But you need to get the price on the fish first. Then the bargaining begins.

insider scoop.

[JasPR]

Hi Lam, The old edicate you are mentioning was once the way of things. But time, greed and a general evolution of the hobby has kinda changed all of that. In fact, in the old days, customers would bring breeders gifts in order to be treated well and as a sign of friendship. O how I long for those days. But they are gone now and koi is big business. And a hobbyist bringing a gift ( other than a token) and bowing like a duck is like putting a sign on that says " I don't know what I'm doing, please take all my yen as quickly and as boldly as possible"

Many things are misinterpreted by the first time hobbyist-buyer when arriving in Japan. One is that your dealer is YOUR advocate. Usually, your dealer is more of a sales representative for the breeder than your ally. They can advise you, help you, make the transportation of the fish home for you an absolute breeze, etc. But they are there primarily to have you buy koi from the breeders they take you to. And they have a relationship with that breeder and often are also buying their company's or shop's fish from the same guy- year after year. They are also often given a undisclosed percentage on every fish you are buying, Often this is a credit against fish that the dealer will buy for his own inventory. So that relationship is more important than the relationship with any one customer- especially one that is just passing thru the hobby or taking one, and only one, trip to Japan. So it is wholly unrealistic to think the dealer is your 'man on the inside'.

One of the most blatant attempted screwings I experienced was from the son of a well known Hiroshima breeder. He offered me a tosai male tateshita. It was a very nice finished show fish so I was interested in it as a 'fun fish for a koi show'. I was thinking maybe $500- 1000. He then gave me a price------ $7500!!!!! For a finished two year old male fish with a zero future but a good fish for winning baby champion or best of size 2 --- maybe! I flipped as I tend not to take insults well. It was only then that my dealer pulled the little shite over to the side and discussed the price. The price dropped $5000 in an instant. In that case, the dealer did the right thing for his customer. JR

[bekko]

Going for that windfall transaction is risky business. The breeder/dealer risks blowing the current sale, risks repeat business by that customer, and risks loosing the business of others in the customers network of acquaintances. The customer base for koi is small and repeat business is essential. In addition, networks are constantly expanding.

Some buyers are of a set-price culture and when given a price will either take it or leave it. It would be unseemly to dicker so if the asking price is inflated the sale can be quickly lost. For others, the buying experience is enhanced if they can haggle over the price but are satisfied with even a token discount. Then, there are the chiselers who are not satisfied until the seller is bleeding through the ears.

The breeder/dealers job is to make the customer happy while making enough money to survive. It's a tough job if you do not know which category the customer falls into when they walk up. Are they set-price, haggler, chiseler? Things get easier on subsequent visits and the asking price is adjusted appropriately. But over the long run the set-price guy, the haggler and the chiseler probably pay about the same.

- s tev

[MikeM]

I have no hesitation to bargain with a dealer... out of the hearing of others. (The desired price will not be accomplished if it is setting a precedent for everybody.) However, I do not negotiate with breeders (domestic). I either buy or not based on what I am willing to spend for the fish. I may end up paying something more than the lowest price that might have been obtained, but I have such respect for what they do that it doesn't concern me. If I want the fish and the price is fair, I'm happy. ...Besides, the pricing on most fish of the better domestic breeders is less than the same fish would be priced if at a name dealer. As for buying direct from breeders in Japan, I would not do it without an experienced, trustworthy person advising me every step. So many costs, commissions, etc., I'd likely not really know what I was agreeing on and likely would be so awed by it all that I couldn't really see what I was looking at. ...Kinda like all those folks who buy timeshares near Disney when their kids are already 12 and older because of bizarre fantasies of family vacations with teenagers wearing Mickey ears...Not.

[JasPR]

There once was a very famous koi dealer from California that would send out a tape of his fish. He had an exceptional eye and the fish looked great on those old VHS tapes.. He would critique each fish, talk about it's level of finish, the good and bad things about it's pattern, it's lineage and finally the price.
For repeat customers it was known that these were not real or final prices. It was just setting the bar for what the price range was. Some innocents just went ahead and paid the price as they did not want to upset 'sensei' or possibly damage their relationship with this knowledgebale individual. The rest of us simple made offers. Sometimes you would get the fish, sometimes not. And if you bought more than one, the prices were always chopped. This made for happy customers ( the one's who got a discount felt special). Two of the customers went on to become big dealers and are still around today. One of them , to this day, uses the same technique of setting the price very high and then coming down when in the mist of the sale. This 'second generation' sales approach, warms my heart and never ceases to put a smile on my face- koi buying/selling can be fun ! JR

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR There once was a very famous koi dealer from California that would send out a tape of his fish. He had an exceptional eye and the fish looked great on those old VHS tapes.. He would critique each fish, talk about it's level of finish, the good and bad things about it's pattern, it's lineage and finally the price. For repeat customers it was known that these were not real or final prices. It was just setting the bar for what the price range was. Some innocents just went ahead and paid the price as they did not want to upset 'sensei' or possibly damage their relationship with this knowledgebale individual. The rest of us simple made offers. Sometimes you would get the fish, sometimes not. And if you bought more than one, the prices were always chopped. This made for happy customers ( the one's who got a discount felt special). Two of the customers went on to become big dealers and are still around today. One of them , to this day, uses the same technique of setting the price very high and then coming down when in the mist of the sale. This 'second generation' sales approach, warms my heart and never ceases to put a smile on my face- koi buying/selling can be fun ! JR

I think I know that dealer.... I have seen one of those tapes, especially the ones when he used to go to Sakai Hiroshima, interesting stuff!!!

I remember back in the day when I first started out in the hobby and I ran across a KoiUSA, in that issue was an article on Gene Ewy's Kokugyo win at the All-Japan Shinkokai Koi Show. In that magazine was the first time I have ever heard of a "Koi Dealer", let alone a whole directory of koi dealers.

I made my first 2 calls to two outside of San Jose and that was to one in Hayward and Palo Alto. I was surprised that they would ask me first how much I was looking to spend, as I didnt know much in pricing of koi in the first place it was hard to tell them. When I couldnt give them a price range they told me that they would only allow me to check out their shops(their homes) if I was truly serious about buying fish. Well, I respected their response and looked into calling dealers closer to home which were much nicer and welcomed me to come over.

I think the main thing with anything in this hobby is to build a long lasting relationship with a dealer your comfortable with as the trade off is not only fish but knowledge too.

Tony

[JasPR]

"I think the main thing with anything in this hobby is to build a long lasting relationship with a dealer your comfortable with as the trade off is not only fish but knowledge too."

This is a very good point and one I agree with 100%. This has been my experience also. But the relationship needs to be put into perspective because misplaced loyality can have a negative effect on your education at some point. Maybe a better way is to have a long lasting relationship with two or three dealers? It produces perspective, a consensus opionion and ties the amateur less close to the marketing message of just dealer. It is very scary for instance to see an amateur working for 'his' dealer. The line between good guy and inside guy is flattering and heady stuff when it comes to wanting to feel on the inside of the koi business. But there is a real price to be paid for that. It is usually only in hindsight that the customer figures this out. JR

[l113892]

I can't think of an anology off hand but I find it interesting the dealers who expect "loyalty". In this case I define loyalty as "you only buy from me". In return, I will offer you fish health advice, etc. but don't even gaze into another dealer's tank. I know some hobbyists that are afraid to buy from multiple dealers. It's silly.

[bekko]

Then, there is the "gripe factor". Some of us require more hand-holding and more advice. Some of us take forever to make a decision. Some of us have abrasive personalities. Some of us whine and complain.

Breeders and dealers are people too (so I'm told). The smile on their face must hind a wench when certain difficult customers walk in the door. The price goes up for a customer with an elevated gripe factor.

-s

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by bekko Then, there is the "gripe factor". Some of us require more hand-holding and more advice. Some of us take forever to make a decision. Some of us have abrasive personalities. Some of us whine and complain. Breeders and dealers are people too (so I'm told). The smile on their face must hind a wench when certain difficult customers walk in the door. The price goes up for a customer with an elevated gripe factor. -s

ROTFLMAO