Koi Dealer Etiquette

[Lam Nguyen]

Do you guys have any koi etiquette to share when at a koi dealer? Here is what I know and please correct me if I have any of them wrong.

At a koi dealer:

1. When a koi is bowled for another person, you should never ask the dealer about that koi until it is released back to the tank from the bowl. In fact, don't even look at the koi in the bowl if it wasn't bowled up for you.

2. Never attempt to net, bowl, or handle a koi unless you have the dealer's permission. In fact, don't even ask the dealer if you can net, bowl, or handle the koi. If the dealer trusts you then s/he will tell you to net/bowl the koi when you want to see one.

3. Never ask about the price of a koi in others' presence. When the dealer mentions a price, don't share it with others. Never attempt to bargain with the dealer. If you agree with the price then that's good. However, if you feel that the price is too high, simply thank him/her and ask if you can see other koi.

Just trying to learn more about koi purchasing etiquette to prepare myself for that special purchasing trip to Japan in the future.

[MCA]

You item 3 has several very different things.

Quote: Never ask about the price of a koi in others' presence.

agreed

Quote: When the dealer mentions a price, don't share it with others.

agreed

Quote: Never attempt to bargain with the dealer. If you agree with the price then that's good. However, if you feel that the price is too high, simply thank him/her and ask if you can see other koi.

disagree.....but....how you negociate with the dealer has much to do with your relationship with the person. The more longer you have known each other...and the more previous business you have done with the dealer....the more you two can discuss the price. This is especially true if you are purchasing more than one piece.

[JasPR]

Never attempt to bargain with the dealer. If you agree with the price then that's good. However, if you feel that the price is too high, simply thank him/her and ask if you can see other koi.

This part is just plain nuts?! Most little koi are marked up from 200- 800 percent. And lately, I've been seeing big koi marketed up 300%.
It is certainly annoying for a dealer to see the same customer coming around low balling everything in stock. On the other hand, koi have no real price other than the cost to the dealer. After that, it is pretty much what the traffic will bear. I've seen customers absolutely taken to the cleaners when it is known they will never question price. It is a recipe for abuse.

Let me tell you how most of the professional business dealers work- koi bought in as a lot are all purchased at the same price wholesale. The fish are then sorted out in different retail price ranges based on pattern, size etc.. Typically upon arrival, prices are very high for the best of the best. And these tend to move quickly with no price haggling. These are sold to the customers who hae been calling all week asking when the next shipment comes in. It is obvious that they will pay up for first choice so that segment is the prime retail segment- the driven 'koi kichi'. Then the middle stock is sold at a more moderate price and tends to stay around longer. Then when a dealer is looking to reorder or go back to Japan, they need money. So the smart ones then blow out the remaining 1/3 of the past shipment at bargain prices to recapture funds for reinvestment in new inventory. Sometimes even at a loss, as the profit on the whole shipment has already been made in the front end and now it is time to clean out stragglers and recapture investment funds. This is where you see sales and bargains ( but the fish are pretty much picked thru at this point). 'Two-fers' or 30%-50% discounts or auctions are all ways to recapture funds from old inventory. These fish are very much negotiable.

In the individual Big fish game, it is not about the fish! It is about the customer. If the prospect is new, green and wealthy, the asking price will be very high. If the customer is knowledgeable and educated the price will be lower unless the dealer is interested in holding back for the first customer I mentioned. There is no price for koi. A koi in the US might sell for 3000. In England where competition is keener and the consumer tends to be more educated, the same fish might sell for 2000. In Japan that fish might cost from 400 to 700 dollars.
And I have absolutely seen $10,000 fish sold for $45,000 here in the US. That , in my opinion is not 'profit'. That is 'profiteering'.

So it is true that customers do not need to be obnoxious or have a right to know the dealer's cost or business. But you would not go into a car dealer, ask the price and then pay what the salesman is suggesting you pay? Buying koi is very much like buying a used car.
Sorry if this sounds overly cynical or dark, I'm just telling the truth.

The other things you mentioned ring true with me. These are manners mostly about how customers should respect other customers while they are being served. JR

[MikeM]

I am certainly guilty of looking at a koi bowled for someone else. I think the important point is to not get in the way and not to insert yourself in the discussion between the dealer and the other customer unless expressly invited to join the conversation. ...I eavesdrop on many dealer-customer conversations at koi shows. I usually look at koi in a different tank while listening to what is being said. There is a good deal to be learned from answers to questions one would not have thought to ask, and even more on those occasions when the answers to one prospective customer are not quite the same as the answers given to an earlier one... sometimes the different answers are for good reasons. One gets to know the dealers whose knowledge can be relied upon, as well as those who are always pitching. When I overhear a dealer who inform an eager hobbyist that the koi exciting him should not be purchased because it will not grow as large as desired, or will not be show-worthy over size 4 ... Well, I become more interested in what that dealer has to say.

[markgardner]

Well, I'm guilty of number 1, I can't recall the last time that I bought a Koi but i've looked at plenty in breeders and dealers bowls. If someone in the supermarket is buying some oranges do your turn away until they've decided which they want.

Of course, expressing an opinion on what someone else is looking at is open to debate and how you do it mostly. With people at different levels of the hobby, if someone is buying some 'scrappers' but that's where they are, it's pretty rude to tell them when you're there to spend 10k. However, if someone is there and looking at and considering a purchase and you truly like it, what harm is say, 'nice fish mate!'? They'd probably love a second opinion from a fellow hobbyist.

I fully accept that it's downright rudeness to jump in and say, 'i'll have that one', from someone elses bowl.

With regards to negotiating, UK, USA, or here in Japan, get away, it's a business, the prices are dictated by whatever someone is prepared to pay, or whatever the seller thinks they'll pay.

[aquitori]

Here's one:

In respect to dealers, one should never tell others that the best prices are at dealer "A" place while at dealer "B".....it should be spoken outside of that person's shop....

On the flip side:

The bowling thing...I want to hear what the hobbyist says if any about the fish, atleast I can get a read if that hobbyist is a bullshyit artist or what...Cause most are...

[l113892]

I think your best chance for a bargain before the fish are completely picked over is to select your fish from the ones the dealer has bought in October. Most hobbyist ponds & quarantine setups in the US are not condusive to purchasing koi in December, Janurary and February. If your setup is, this is the best time to buy!

[farne230]

I assume these dealer rules are for those buying koi in Japan?
Bob

[Lam Nguyen]

Thank you guys. James, does price bargaining apply to when you are at a breeder's facility buying koias well? I remember reading somewhere that negotiating prices with a breeder is considered an insult to him/her. Also, I cannot agree with you more about the price mark-up in koi that are imported from Japan. This is especially true for koi that are sold the first few days after they are imported and everyone wants to have that "special" koi that have just arrived.

Tony, thanks for the comments about telling others about koi prices while at another dealer's place. As for having others look at koi that are bowled, I usually don't look at koi that have been bowled for another customer unless that customer is my friend or asks for my opinion. I myself don't like it when others look at koi that are bowled for me because I don't want to feel like rushed or having to compete with that other customer for the bowled koi.

Mike, I agree with you that the best time to buy koi is during the winter months. However, the koi that are left during these months are koi that have not found a home. There's usually not that many show-quality koi left.

[Nancy M.]

When we go to Japan to purchase fish, we always bargain on the price of a fish. We always get prices and then bargain. After that we find another we really like and ask the price. Then if we really want both we bargain on a package deal. The more fish we put into the package the better price we get.

I have even bargained in Japan, when purchasing a 3 or 4 year old fish, to get "my pick" of a two year old for free..

Same holds true for buying from local dealers, package deals are the way to go. But you need to get the price on the fish first. Then the bargaining begins.