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Old 05-24-2008   #1 (permalink)
Honmei
 
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the value of air

Oxygen, Oh two, what we breathe, what they breathe (our koi) can they get Too Much......

years ago in another parrish the tongue in cheek expression was "did we mention air ".
Since that time we have heard of special set ups with medical grade oxygen being administered to the koi ponds in japan. many a UK hobbyist kept the filters and koi pond itself jacuzzi like with air everywhere.

When toshio Sakai was back for his california seminar this year, he mentioned the importance of air for the health of the koi.

So let's talk about rule of thumb for liters of O2 per ton and then let's talk about going overboard, what good/harm can it do. Who wants to start?
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Old 05-24-2008   #2 (permalink)
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What a great subject....I was just looking at airpumps the other day...and wondering how do I know how big of one I will need for alittle over 5,000 gallons...I know I need it on the 2 bds...and in the bio..but, how much air does the pump need to push and should there be one pump for all 3 or should I use 2 seperate ones ?
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Old 05-24-2008   #3 (permalink)
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Air ain't oxygen! The air we breath is a mixture of 21% oxygen, 78% nitrogen, and approximately 1% other trace gases.

We need to do with our fish environment is to maximize the dissolved oxygen (DO), and extract (off gass) as much nitrogen gas as possbile. Remember that nitrogen is the building block for those ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate compounds.

So knowing that we need to max the DO to at least 20% of saturation (which varys by water temp).....never less than 8ppm....what things can we do to creak up the DO and release the nitrogen?

What say ye?
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Old 05-24-2008   #4 (permalink)
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I was hopeing you'd post! From a technical stand point what is the rule of thumb for liters of air pump wise per gallonage...also don't you agree tramquility would be better off with two air pumps rather than all her eggs in one basket?
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Old 05-24-2008   #5 (permalink)
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please explain..... how does Kevin get away with running a Medo 45 on one airstone in his big female tank?
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Old 05-24-2008   #6 (permalink)
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Great topic Dick, and certainly one that any serious hobbyist must have a firm grasp of knowledge on in order to maximize water environment and fish growth. Here is what I know so far, and please correct me if you guys find anything wrong.

As MCA mentioned, atmospheric air consists of 21% oxygen, 78% nitrogen, and 1% of trace gases. When we use atmospheric air to oxygenate our ponds, we can get about 20% dissolved oxygen (DO) saturation. This percent DO saturation is dependent on temperature, with oxygen being more easily dissolved in colder waters. It is also dependent on oxygen consumers in the body of water: biomass, biofilter, organic matter, and algae. I also agree with MCA that DO should not dip below 8% for this would result in growth retardation.

A decrease in DO may be due to several factors. The first factor is insufficient oxygenation. Another factor is algae releases O2 in presence of sunlight and consumes O2 in the absence of sunlight. Because of this DO varies throughout the day in ponds heavily populated with algae, with DO being the lowest in the morning and highest in the evening. Another factor is fish load. As we all know, the greater the fish load, the more oxygen is consumed.

Water saturation of DO is dependent on maximizing water surface area to air. This is achieved with the use of air pumps. Another way is via water agitation, be it via a waterfall or water propeller. Finally, there is the use of Bakki showers or trickle towers. In addition to oxygenating water, these showers and towers are great at removing nitrogen to the atmosphere as well.

Now, to get to Dick's question, here's what I have gathered. The use of pure oxygen to oxygenate water has been used by fish aquaculture for years. The goal is to have 100% DO, something that is not possible with atmospheric air, which contains only 21% O2, without exceeding gas pressure over 100%. As far as how much liters of O2 per ton/gallon of water, this is dependent on the fish load and, at least in fish culture, how much food is fed. According to Huisman et al (1974), for common carp, a warmwater species, 230 grams of O2 is consumed per kg of food fed.

Can we go overboard with oxygenation? The answer is yes. When total dissolved gas pressure (TGP) exceeds barometric pressure, a phenomenon called gas bubble trauma can occur. This is when water is so supersaturated that air bubbles occur in the blood and tissue of koi. This most commonly occurs in cold superaturated water.

Given the benefits of using pure oxygen in fish culture, it is not surprising that the use of pure oxygen in koi farms in Japan is gaining popularity. There are questions that remain to be answered:

1. How much does oxygen affect koi growth? We know that koi growth is minimal in waters that are <8% saturated. But do koi really need >20% DO saturation?

2. Is it cost-effective to use pure oxygens to oxygenate our koi ponds?

3. How safe is it to use oxygen cylinders in a common ponder's backyard.

I know that I am just scratching the surface when it comes to knowledge in this subject matter, but I hope that this will get us started and spark interest in those that are well versed in this area so that they can give their input. I have attached a few links of the use of pure oxygen in fish culture that I found on the web. I will also talk to a couple of fellows (one is a trout farmer and another is a zebra fish breeder for scientific research) that I know who I hope with give us more insights in this subject matter.

The Application of Pure Oxygen in Recirculating Systems

http://www.pointfour.com/PDFs/Articl...ementation.pdf

http://www.atlantech.ca/public/artic...20Quality3.PDF
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Old 05-24-2008   #7 (permalink)
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The air pumping rule of thumb Waddy put in K2K was 100L for each 1200US/1000UK gallons to make sure we always stay above 8ppm. In our pond I have a Dolphin AV150 on each of the two BD domes (at 8") and and I have an Airtech 120L on each of the Nexus. So in 10,000 gallos I am pump at least 400L. Then there is the impact of the water fall (very hard to calculate.). Also I should have one Bakki shower stand on line this weekend with the second one to follow next week.

ORP is always at least 325mV. With the showers on line, I expect ORP to rise...don't know how much. Nitrogen levels should definitely decrease.

From what I have seen, if I had a filter house where I could prevent chilling in the winter, I would run a shower stack on each BD and on the skimmer circuit. Fluid beds now being my second choice.
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Old 05-24-2008   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moikoi View Post
please explain..... how does Kevin get away with running a Medo 45 on one airstone in his big female tank?
How much air does he have in his filtration system???
Also they are not growing them but only holding until sold, big difference in operations...............
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Old 05-24-2008   #9 (permalink)
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I would say that Tranquility should run two pumps instead of one. One to the bio and one to the bottom drains. The more air you can get to the bio the better and running two pumps would give you a safety factor in case one goes out. Reduntancy is something I have learned the hard way.

I'm running a Dolphin 150 off my bottom drain (at 5 feet) and an Airtech 80 to my Nexus. I have been thinking of adding a second bottom drain and was going to split the 150 to both BD's that way I could cut down on the turbulence. But following Waddy's reccomendation would mean I would need to add another pump to get up to the "right" level. 4,000 gallon pond would mean 325 liters of air. I would never be able to see my koi with that much turbulence, unless I add the pump to the upcoming bakki shower.

Just the thoughts of a rookie...
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Old 05-24-2008   #10 (permalink)
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now we're starting to roll

thanks MCA and Lam....that's the kind of input I wanted on this thread to get it rolling......

What Kevin does as a dealer would be different than we hobbyists would consider. His job is to get them in, stabilize and find homes for them. Our job is to help them become what the breeders puy inyo Them. And that's what this thread is all about. What role does oxygenation play with growth digestion etc, how much is enough.....is it worth the extra effort and expense
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