Stress / Disease *need help*

[Kyrol]

In my quest to find out what’s been slowly causing my Koi to die off I found your forums and have been reading for a few days and still haven’t found what is causing my issues.

First and fore most the tank set up. (temp tank for them till big enough to send to the pond)
55 gallon tank
Tetra Whisper under gravel filter
Tetra Whisper 40-60 filter
Tetra Whisper 40 air pump
36inchs of air stone


The fish range in size from 4-5 inches
Yellow Ogon
Platinum Ogon
Orange Ogon

It stared with the orange Ogon I came home from work and went to the tank to check on them and feed them when he attempted to launch him self out of the tank and proceed to swim around the tank a warp speed slamming into every thing and tilting to his side and floating for a bit then snapping out of it. All be it the other 2 fish seems fairly spooked by it I took it as maybe I spooked him. But I tested the water to make sure everything was okay. From the test kit everything read perfect other then ph being a little base. From 6 till midnight when I went to bed he had 3 more fits like this then died while I was at work the next day.

Then about 2 weeks later the yellow one the biggest of the 3 at nearly 5 inches started the same except this time there was a massive amount of color loss. He had almost no pigment in his system he had opened up sores on his face and head from slamming into things then kept trying to beach himself on the back of the power heads for the under gravel filter. After running the full course of Mela fix Prima fix and Quick Cure he held on for almost 2 weeks before I euthanized him. If anyone has any idea what is going on please give me some insight as to what I’ve done wrong.

At 6 inches I was planning to move them to a 1,000 gallon pond I had built in the backyard “currently home to 3 very fat and happy comets” but with just 1 Koi left I don’t want to proceed with placing him in there with what ever it is that’s ravaging the other 2 fish.
If you need any other information or something I might have missed to help with the diagnosis of the issue please post your questions here and I will answer them as best I can.

[Meg]

how long have you had these koi?
keeping them in a 55 gal tank it does not suprzed me thay ar banging themselves up
Marie keeps some while they are small inside in a tank and does well, perhaps she can give some pointers on keeping them calm

throw away the melafix and don't shotgun treat with the others

[Kyrol]

Quote: Originally Posted by Meg how long have you had these koi? keeping them in a 55 gal tank it does not suprzed me thay ar banging themselves up Marie keeps some while they are small inside in a tank and does well, perhaps she can give some pointers on keeping them calm throw away the melafix and don't shotgun treat with the others

I got all 3 Koi around 3rd of January 2008. They were aprox. 2 to 2.5 inches in length and were just to small to make the move into the pond with the 10 inch Comets. Since the day I got them in the tank I have used aquarium salt and every 4 days doing 20% water changes while the tank stayed at around 60degrees Fahrenheit.

I was already having that internal dilemma of putting them in the pond when they reached the 5 inch mark when I had these issues. If what I’m talking about doesn’t sound like a real issue and more of them stressing them selves out to the max and then dieing is it more of an over stocking issue for the tank or maybe even the fact all 3 of them are males?

Mela fix and Prima fix I have used both in conjunction with each other when ever I have had an issues while growing the Comets and it helped them immensely I know a lot of people aren’t fond of them but they have worked for me in the past.

[PapaBear]

"fight or flight" responses are fairly common if the water gets off a bit, and what you describe sounds like that. In a small environment the water can go off in a matter of minutes rather than hours or days, and when it does the stress causes them to try and "escape". Failing a successful escape, the stress (nitrites, ammonia, osmotic stress, etc...) will take them out one by one rather quickly.
What are your specific test numbers for ph, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, salinity, and kh?

[kntry]

Does this happen after your water changes? Do you have city water and do you use any type of dechlorinator?

[Kyrol]

Quote: Originally Posted by kntry Does this happen after your water changes? Do you have city water and do you use any type of dechlorinator?

Tetra Aqua safe left to sit for 24 hours with an air pump blowing in it to help circulate the water and air. City water.

The exact readings are

Ph 7.6
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
I need another test kit for the rest of the numbers. The only issue water wise i have is about every 4th day my ammonia would start to creep up. It isn't an issue now that there is just a few snails and him in there.

I'm starting to get the feeling it was an overstock/stress issue. Best ways to destress Koi?

[MikeM]

Put it in the pond. If it is doing well in two weeks, get two more to keep it company. Three is enough for a 1,000 gallon pond. ...They do grow.

The fact that you had detectable ammonia at any time indicates there was inadequate filtration in the aquarium.

[Kyrol]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM Put it in the pond. If it is doing well in two weeks, get two more to keep it company. Three is enough for a 1,000 gallon pond. ...They do grow. The fact that you had detectable ammonia at any time indicates there was inadequate filtration in the aquarium.

With 3 Koi in the tank with an average of 5 inches I guess they put off a lot more waste then I thought. Should have supplemented the carbon with an ammonia remover. I added the last Ogon to the pond today he seems to be getting along fine with the 3 comets and I bought him a friend today. This one is in the 55gallon tank by her self other then 2 snails to make sure nothing is wrong before tossing her into the pond.

I haven’t named her yet but I saw her and fell in love. She’s got him beat in size by a rather large sum almost 7 inches and probably 3, 3.5inchs in circumference around at her thickest point. Pic was taken from a 2.5 gallon bucket.

[silver356b]

Since it looks like you are going to keep using your "temporary tank," I would suggest that, in addition to all previous advice, you test your KH levels and buffer your water if necessary. pH swings seem to be the worst enemy of small tanks. They can wipe your bio filter very easily, and give you ammonia spikes.

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by Meg how long have you had these koi? keeping them in a 55 gal tank it does not suprzed me thay ar banging themselves up Marie keeps some while they are small inside in a tank and does well, perhaps she can give some pointers on keeping them calm throw away the melafix and don't shotgun treat with the others

Now see, I've never had a koi bang itself up in a 55 gallon (what I started my foray into QT with), or any of my larger tanks either. But I don't introduce a new koi to a bare tank, either. In my 75 gallon (first place I'd put them) I have a thin layer of coarse river sand and float anacharis or willow fronds on the surface. This is my attempt at giving the new charges carpy creature comforts to waylay the 'flight' response by giving them something to focus on other than 'getting away.' At the very worst, they'll hide until I feed for the first time. After they've fed and browsed the whole tank, they're good to go, and become very curious about the hand that feeds them and the face staring at them from their own level. Place them with a tame canary (koi cull or single tailed goldfish) and they'll settle in even faster. Once settled, they can go to a bare tank, which is the easiest to keep clean.

Filtration is the key in keeping these small systems balanced. Koi and goldfish are very waste intensive, and having a large koi in a small living space is really hard to keep balanced--but it IS possible. I use a combination of filters on the tanks (aquaclear hob's, fluval 405 cannisters, a diy 5 gallon gravel filter and a huge wet/dry unit) to keep the water pristine and do 25% water changes every other day. It is labor intensive, but I have happy fish that are growing like there's no manana, and which will be a good size once the weather finally stabilizes and I put them out in the ponds.

As far as the original poster's problems with koi freaking, flashing and breaching in a tank setup, I would bet there was something in the water burning them, most likely ammonia, chlorine or a PH crash. That behavior speaks loudly of a serious water problem to me. If the filtration isn't enough to filter 100 gallons like it's 1,000, then filtration is/was the culprit.

Just my take on things,
Marie