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Old 06-03-2008   #81 (permalink)
Honmei
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tangigi View Post
will this scenario cover my cost of running my pond?

Buy a dozen 12 inch guaranteed female chagoi from Seitaro at approx. US$600 each.

grow them for 3 years and sell 10 pieces for approx US$2,300 each.

2,300 - 600 = 1,700

1,700 x 10 pcs = 17,000/3 years = 5,666.00
Yup, you figured it out.
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Old 06-03-2008   #82 (permalink)
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Oh..and jnorth, you thought I forgot you!! You had nothing better to do today that gather my old posts to try and make me look bad?? You do that to someone who is a good member here for 3 years, and has never done or said a wrong word to you? Then, you state it is not allowed for me to compete...when the bylaws of my local club clearly state that I can. Seriously...get the facts before you post 100% WRONG information...and then attack someone with it!!! Or even more seriously..get a life!!! The only thing you exposed today was your own lack of character!!! Serves you right for jumping on the bandwagon!!
I wasn't trying to make you look bad at all and I didn't attack you either. In fact the posts I listed backed up everything you said. They show that you have showed and that you have won awards. Whats wrong with that? As for the pro vs hobbyist thing.... Clearly you are a professional now as your statements indicate. You aren't hiding it so I pointed that out so no one would infer that you were. I think thats pretty nice of your club to allow pros to compete with hobbyist....most don't but whatever. Never once did I say you were doing something unethical etc. Take all that as some sort of attack if you want but I think you read way too much into my post.
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Old 06-03-2008   #83 (permalink)
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LOL. Russell, why didn't you think of it?

Who is able to sell Chagoi for $2300? Not all that many buyers at $500 for a Chag. ...If you check around, you'll find the only ones able to get prices over $2000 paid with any sort of regularity are very established dealers who have invested many tens of thousands of dollars in building their reputations through advertising, appearing at shows, etc. And who have gained the trust of their customers through dealing in quality, and pricing accordingly. A $2300 Chagoi is not simply large. She has no scars, no mis-aligned scales, no areas of discoloration ... all of which stand out on the simple canvas. She does have fine conformation, and even coloration, preferably light 'green tea', not dark 'black tea'.

BTW, I'm guessing that the total market in the U.S. for $2300 Chagoi is probably no more than 10 people per year? ...Gotta find them... every one of them, before the other guys do.
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Old 06-04-2008   #84 (permalink)
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I wasn't trying to make you look bad at all and I didn't attack you either. In fact the posts I listed backed up everything you said. They show that you have showed and that you have won awards. Whats wrong with that? As for the pro vs hobbyist thing.... Clearly you are a professional now as your statements indicate. You aren't hiding it so I pointed that out so no one would infer that you were. I think thats pretty nice of your club to allow pros to compete with hobbyist....most don't but whatever. Never once did I say you were doing something unethical etc. Take all that as some sort of attack if you want but I think you read way too much into my post.
Alright, alright...maybe I got a wheee bit sensitive and took it wrong. My mistake...sorry.
I still consider myself a hobbyist more than a professional. All my larger koi that will be in a show were purchased at full retail prices. The only discount I get is with 4-8inch BWcreek fish. The truth is anyone can walk into my wholesaler and purchase them. I just get a discount because I buy a bunch each week...and I'm friends with the owner. I don't really have more access or anything like that...and no importers license. I don't really have an advantage over any other hobbyist. If I did...I would own a 30+inch GC already!! My facility is 3 kiddie pools in my basement of 1200gal and two of 440gal. I think everyone here believes it's much more extensive than it really is. I just work very hard at keeping them healthy so they sell and ship well. I actually consider the picking out and selling to be part of the hobby for me now. I consider my wholesaler to be a koi-professional. I'm just a hobbyist trying to improve his eye by looking at tons of koi each week. If I thought I had an unfair advantage over other competitors...I would never enter a show. It's not my style to cheat for a win. My character is worth more to me than a $6 trophy.
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Old 06-04-2008   #85 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Brutuscz View Post
Steve, I only do ground shipping to close states. That way..it is there the next day. I have been 100% successful with ground shipping....never an issue. As it gets warm, I add styrofoam and cold packs. I have a really good shipping record with fedex. I think I lost fish once...but it was to arizona. Temperatures were insane...I learned a lesson from that one.
I wish I paid $5 for the koi...but, I am not the wholesaler. I am friends with him, so he gives me a discount...but not anything crazy. Maybe near you that koi would be $18...but, not near me. The prices and expenses I listed were honest. I didn't even make $20 on the fish. But, I had fun doing it. Usually I try to find something that is a little difficult to find. That has worked for me since the begining. A kikokuryu or shusui sells very quickly for me...so, I always look for them. Find a butterfly asagi or shusui...it sells like it can fly!!! But, it takes time to find them and photograph them. So, my prices are reasonable. If I can't make $20 on a sale...why even bother with the headache? I think my prices are very fair. If people buy more..I usually discount the group. I have never had a complaint that my prices were high...only the shipping!!!
Brutus, first off, I have no problem with how much you make on a koi that you sell. I was simply pointing out the actual math. As long as the statements made are accurate it becomes "Let the buyer beware." Personally, I do not like "Hype" either, but that is me.

Now, let's get back to that ground shipping issue becuase there, I still take exception as to even offering such. You stated:

Quote:
I ship fedex only on wednesdays. Other days may be able to be arranged...contact me!!! I guarantee live arrival with overnight shipping only!!!
please contact me with your zip code for a shipping quote.
I will ship fedex ground to save you money...but will not guarantee time or live arrival!!!
Previously above you stated that you only do this to close states so that it still arrives the next day. Then why do you not guarantee live arrival for this if it is cheaper but still has a one day arrival time? Something simply does not add up there....at least for me.

Steve
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Old 06-04-2008   #86 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by schildkoi View Post
Brutus, first off, I have no problem with how much you make on a koi that you sell. I was simply pointing out the actual math. As long as the statements made are accurate it becomes "Let the buyer beware." Personally, I do not like "Hype" either, but that is me.

Now, let's get back to that ground shipping issue becuase there, I still take exception as to even offering such. You stated:



Previously above you stated that you only do this to close states so that it still arrives the next day. Then why do you not guarantee live arrival for this if it is cheaper but still has a one day arrival time? Something simply does not add up there....at least for me.

Steve
The ground shipping is actually new for me this season. The fedex priority overnight guarantees a delivery time. By 10:30am the next morning or 12:30 to the west coast. With ground from Ct to NY, NJ,MA, PA...it is there the next day, but at no specified time. So, Although I have been 100% successful with ground shipping so far, the risk is on the buyer. I make that clear to them when they contact me for a shipping quote. If things continue to be perfect all season...I may guarantee live arrival next season with ground shipping.
The truth is even the one time a fish died during shipping..and I had no live arrival guarantee, I still refunded the price of the fish minus the cost of shipping. The customer appreciated it and eventually bought again. Shipping was successful the next time. Like I said...I do it as a hobby. I don't need bad feelings over a dead fish. It was easier to give them money back than argue over whose fault it was. I do it for fun...so, I try to keep things headache free. If I did it as a full time job..I might think a little differently.
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Old 06-04-2008   #87 (permalink)
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Old 06-04-2008   #88 (permalink)
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Timid, aren't you. LOL's

I thought I had sniffed out the 'sentiment' behind the one line comments. I have faced this kinda thing for the last 23 years in the hobby. And it intensified on the internet. There seems to be a real desire from the dealer community ( and from misguided fellow hobbyists) to put me in a box as being one dimensional in my education. I mean, it seems like a 'need' to tear my credibility down in order to build the taunter up?
You might recall another anom suggesting I was just a tourist while in Japan and have always been kept in a bubble and was therefore clueless in my understanding of koi and the Japanese system. It was certainly what that anom wanted to be reality, but it was not reality. I have been to Japan and on the inside of things more than most American dealers that go to Japan. Sounds outrageous I know. But true. I have seen known dealers and breeders over there and they were clueless as how to act and where to go. The silly comments that come out of them when they get home are absolutely priceless. Yet I never mock them about this as everyone has to start somewhere. Yet it is they who are in a bubble created by their their Japanese agent/translator.
The key here is to buy from the same guys over many years but NOT to be with the same handlers. And at some point it is important to strike out on your own. And also to cultivate relationships with important hobbyists in Japan who fast track your education and open doors to certain breeders. What I mean here is you need to free ypurself from the distribution system at some point. Any one can do it and many have. I just happen to one of them and one that frequents these koi boards. It just takes, time, networking, money and perserverance. Thos process includes the school of hard knocks- being burnt by breeders, dealers, locals and you own raw untrained eye! And you always need to remind yourself that the system of koi distrubution is fundamentally flawed and dishonest, but that the koi are innocent and are the point of the exercise. And of course, that time will sort out the few trust worthy people over there. Everyone who has really gotten to the inside of the industry knows what I'm talking about. I often imagine there is a poster of me in some small out of the way Shinkokai home office similar to the wanted posters you see in the Post Office.
I seem to be getting this treatment here again as I'm not a koi breeder. And although I am now doing my first dedicated and focused breeding in years, do you really think I have never bred koi before? After being in the hobby for 23 years and after going to the same breeders to see my fish grow at the farms for 15 years?
The first 7 years of koi keeping for me was about culling random spawnings. That's seven years. I learned what not to do and the reality of why koi cost as much as they do. The limits and eventually the lesson of " you can't get a silk purse from a sow's ear" was drilled into me over that period of time. In the eighth year, I removed all males. I avoided breeding my own at that point and went to the experts to watch their breeding experiments. I watched friends like Joe Z also breed every year for those 23 years. I was watching him breed koi in a garage for heaven's sake, BEFORE the creation of the Famous Quality koi farm.
I have not put the fish together to 'do the deed' in many years. But I have culled, watched experts cull and watched those surviving the culls, grow. I have studied skin development from fry to promising tategoi. Now here's an immodest response- I do know more than the random back yard breeder about koi. NOT HIS koi, but koi as a group and how they develop. Sorry if this sounds pompous. It is not meant to be.
So to bring this all home, I got amused and a tad devilish with my questioning when you suggested that my world would be twirled when I first bred these sankes. I'm sure I'll learn a thing or two ( I hope so!), but will my entire 23 year education be altered by raising my own spawn under truly controlled conditions? Hardly. I'm sure it would appear that way to someone who was new and doing it for the very first time but I am doing this against that 23 years of constant exposure to koi, koi breeding and even the 'hungry years' of the learning curve.
And do not delude yourself, raising junk from junk only teaches you about junk. It does nothing to raise your perspective. That is a well known fact among those that talk the talk and walk the walk.
Sorry for this rather obnoxious post, but I had to get it off my chest. Koi keeping does teach humility. JR
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Old 06-04-2008   #89 (permalink)
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I thought I might try shipping koi this year, but haven't, and probably wont. I don't sell on e-bay, and never plan on it. I did learn last year that koi are more expensive in the big cities like Chicago and St. Louis. Last year we went to a couple pond stores in St. Louis that sold koi and there were 3-4" koi for sale for $80 each. A 16" ugly ogon with a few black specks was $300.

I think I get a fair price for my fish, and I try not to hype them up that much, after all, they are just Bickalgoi
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Old 06-05-2008   #90 (permalink)
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Jr...

I absolutely loved that last post. One of those "get some perspective" reality check posts that newb's need to hear. Backyard "experiments" are fun and challenging, but as with anything else, your skill can only take you as far as your experience and the "raw material" you are working with can carry you. Even working with Koi of superior quality can yield disappointing result either from a mismatched genetic profile from the particular pairing or from the inadequacy of the breeders eye for culling.
Up to this point our primary lessons have been in learning how to see the best skin our fish are capable of producing,, patterns be damned. We've hung on to some mediocre fish in terms of pattern and body conformation simply to see what the skin had to offer and learn all we can from that single thing. We've also kept poor skin with great body characteristics to see how well they would grow.
This year we hope to combine lessons on skin with pattern and growth capacity to step up the learning curve a notch. Why did we do it that way you might ask???
Too few fish who had good traits all the way around to observe and learn from. It has forced my eye to see good skin, good bodies, good patterns. as completely independent things and not allow any one thing to take over my eye.
My highest hope is that doing this will discipline my judgment to see the entire fish in all of its essential ingredients and never become so consumed by any one trait that it blinds me to its other faults.
It will never make me a great breeder. It might make me a wise customer for those who are...
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