a close personal friend of mine

[HEADACHE6]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Not a future fish but a REALLY nice now fish. Great bright colors. JR

Jim , For the Hick of It , please explain ?

The future part , not the great bright colors part .

[JasPR]

well, THAT is a killer fish. but it is mostly a finished fish. Every fish has it's 'prime time'. And as you know, koi move towards a peak and then level off and eventually decline. How long they hold their peak is another conversation. But attaining their peak is what we are talking about. This fish is about 80% finished. And I'm not just talking about the rest of the sumi finishing. The head and shoulders of this beauty tells you a lot. The shape of the face and depth of chest and expanse of shoulder suggest the conformation is fixed already. It will grow longer for sure but the bone structure is mostly mature. I'd like to see the beni in person as the picture is hard to see dimension in the beni. The white is a KILLER hard white which is another indicator of time line. Maybe Dick can comment on whether the skin is of a translucent or solid nature? I can't tell, but from the photo it looks done as a hard white shiroji. If so that Jitai will limit beni somewhat.
Great bright colors- lordie! JR

[Lam Nguyen]

I am still confused between the quality of beni versus finished beni. When I think of quality, I think of "the number of layers of paint" of that beni. This means that the beni layer is thick and deep. When I think of finished beni, I also think of the thickness of the beni. So how do you distinguish the difference between the quality versus the level of finish of the koi?

When I look at this koi, I first see that there's still a lot of tsubo sumi that are yet to finish. I also see a great body conformation that is typical of Matsunosuke tosai that I believe will improve down the road. I also see a future fish rather than a now fish. As far as the beni is concerned, the only thing I can comment is that it has very good quality orange-red beni that many people seek/admire.

The only concern with this koi is that it has uneven motoguro. There is no motoguro in the left pec. Wonder if this will appear down the road? What is your guys' take on tosai without motoguro? Will it appear or not? According to Mamoru Kodama in his book Kokugyo II, some tosai w/o motoguro actually develop motoguro as they grow. Just my thought.

Hi Dick, who's this good personal friend of yours?

[Xrs]

Very Nice fish indeed, love the color and the body wish i have something like that in my pond

[JasPR]

Lam, this is a tricky subject to discuss without the living example in front of us. But speaking in general terms we have words in koi that trick us. here is one of my favorite word riddles:

all tategoi are unfinished fish. But not all unfinished fish are tategoi!

Think about that.

The most common yet most misunderstood concept in nishikigoi is the tategoi. Often referred to as 'future fish', 'potential fish' or 'unfinished fish', Tategoi is an enigma in the hobby. It really shouldn't be. A tategoi is a potential fish or a fish that shows traits that could become a desirable prototype higher class fish if the traits continue to develop. This is not centered on finishing unfinished color.
A koi breeder/ farmer will keep all fish that show certain traits. And first cull and then sell off the drop outs. But no tateshita is a tategoi. And it is difficult to watch and read some posts that review tateshita and talk about the future of the fish. Certainly this fish we are discussing now is not Tateshita!!! It is a high class fish. I am just suggesting the traits that are there are nearing a conclusion. It is more unfinished at the this point than tategoi. I cringe and worry that the owner of this fish might be fuming and taking these comments personally. They should not! First this is only my opinion. And second, ALL koi have a window in time. More than a few years ago I had the privilege to see two very famous fish in their home settings - the inazuma showa and one of the All Japan GC sankes of great fame. They had reached their peak the year of the show and when I got to see each one they were past that peak. These were once the best fish on the planet earth for a time. When I saw them , they were no longer of that description or title. This is koi.
I suspect that this showa will grow, the sumi will finish and it will be an incredible show fish. I can say that because basically this fish is now what it will be in the future, VERY well patterned and brightly colored. Very little guess work left in this fish. It is what it is. I can see it's peak coming, can't you? It's a simple extrapolation.

I'm getting long winded now, but just to finish up the concept ( pun intended),

the key to most show fish is the concept of jitai. In 'good old boy' talk it means, when a fish is right--- it's right. In JR talk this means that ALL FISH are blessed and also limited by the type of skin they have. This fundamental factor controls the color development, the rate of finish, and the look and the lasting power of the color cells. And this type of skin I refer to is typically found on a certain type of bone structure due to selective breeding.

In the end, it is fun to gamble on fish. And understanding about skin type is one way to reduce the odds. determining sex and the stage of development a fish is in at certain age and size is another. We should NEVER demerit and discount a fish that is finishing early in life, especially male fish. They can be quite beautiful and a satisfying experience to own. But we should not dream too hard on fish which are very finished at a young age. Instead, enjoy them for what they are and if they are that one in ten thousand fish that break thru the odds, enjoy winning the lottery! JR

[l113892]

I need Jim with me the next time I go to Japan, especially when making a decision to keep a koi with the breeder to grow out or I could continue to trust the breeder, maybe not so smart.

[dick benbow]

the white looks fine in the first two pics and then a bit hard and bright on the third, which is really NOT the case. The dealer who received this koi ordered boxes of all three of Toshio's graded koi and this was his highest grade. The skin on this fish is really silky, and while the beni looks finished it is from his new marusome breeding and the scales have not even begun to scallop.

[JasPR]

I see. Is this a 'new' new maruzome type or the transfer of maruzome from his sankes to the showa? If you are referring to that older 'new' trait ( around since 2000) , I get what you are saying. If this is something really new in say the last three or four years I am ignorant of the progression. So please share ! JR

[dick benbow]

Toshio introduced his new marusome beni and sumi to collectors about three years ago.

The beni begins to scallop along the bottom part of the steps closest to the belly of the fish
and as the koi progresses, the scalloping continues to progress to the dorsal area when it is
nearing finish.

I saw a lot of single A grade koi that had the marusome beni showing already in the shoulders
on the last shipment. As you can tell in this attached kohaku photo, the marusome scalloping is already advanced and as the bright dark red would suggest i believe this tosai is male, which would all fall together with the signs.

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow Toshio introduced his new marusome beni and sumi to collectors about three years ago. The beni begins to scallop along the bottom part of the steps closest to the belly of the fish and as the koi progresses, the scalloping continues to progress to the dorsal area when it is nearing finish. I saw a lot of single A grade koi that had the marusome beni showing already in the shoulders on the last shipment. As you can tell in this attached kohaku photo, the marusome scalloping is already advanced and as the bright dark red would suggest i believe this tosai is male, which would all fall together with the signs.

Does the shade of beni go the way of Kagura or Sensuke Persimmon as the fish matures?