Keep or Cull?

[dtran6]

Ryan,

If you ever want to cull some your koi again, please let me know because I'm sure I can find someone in the Port Arthur area that would gladly pay you for them. Heck, I might even take a few.

[JasPR]

Stan,

Yes, I also think they are all very male 'ish' ( except maybe #3) and so the criteria I applied in deciding if they would be worth space in a pond was based on that of male fish review. In nice brightly colored males you need and want pattern the most. Since males are gifted with strong color and bright flashy patterns, these are good examples.
The worst pattern of course is #1 as the fish is unbalanced. The #2 fish is a sanke type but the showa nose makes this fish interesting and worth keeping another year to see if this inbetween fish ever declares itself ! I think we are going to continue to see these mixed sanke for a while now as they flood showa with sanke. It would be an interesting experience watching that fish grow. Although I worry about the pec fins on three of these fish. I do think a trimming is in order for #2. The #2 fish can really teach a beginner the difference between sanke and showa - beyond the beginners description that says sanke have no black on the head and showa do! If you watch #2 develop you will see the nature of sanke sumi, it's body orientation and it's atmosphere. Indeed a kindai showa is something more than a sanke with sumi on the face.
Number three is obviously the only fish without the body line characteristics of young males. It is pretty nice in pattern and 'very showa' in both shape and coloring.

When you look at a group of male ish fish, besides the long slim body shape, look to the shape of the head and face to confirm a male look. And the nature of the shiroji is telling. This will place the fish in a grade as an example of a male fish of pond grade, show grade or even tategoi grade.
I think these fish are nice solid males. Limited in the koi show maybe, but still pretty nice fish to own and enjoy.
Not trying to be politically correct here but each one of these fish has something to admire about it. But for the pec fins! O the pec fins!! JR

[saratogatan]

thanks JR. As a judge, what would you categorize #2, say, in a koi show ? sanshowa ? I ask because I used to own a tancho showa (?). At nisai it started to show both showa and sanke charateristic. I did not know what it really was so I gave it away.

stan

[JasPR]

Hey Stan, I think we had a thread on this subject before? The best way to guesstimate what you are looking at is by the preponderance of evidence.
As you know, sanke and showa really have different sumi type. One is black based and the other is white based. One is deep shiny and surface orientated and the other is strong, dense and deep- rising from the base skin. But even before this is the basic orientation of the sumi itself as a pattern. ( and for me, THIS is what defines a sanke a sanke and a showa a showa.)

Sanke have a dorsal based sumi. It tends to be deep and shiny and located ON the back of the fish in steps or gathered blotches of sumi cells. But as deep as it is, it is a gathering of millions of surface sumi cells trapped in white skin and rallying around the fat layer.
Showa, on the other hand, is traditionally a fish with a wrapping of base sumi coloring rising from the sides and onto the back.
So if you 'sit back and look at the forest thru the trees', you see a definite orientation to sumi patterns. This same differentation is evident when comparing bekko to shiro utsuri.

In addition, there is the fin pattern evidence. Sanke often having the streaking or stripped sumi lines in the pec fins. Whereas showa has the classic motoguru marking in the pec joints.
Sanke also have a classic sanke eye ( silver fern in the eye and a blue eye shadow over the lid). Showa have typically, a black doll eye and may or may not have blue eye shadow.

And finally ( and only finally) the sanke has a stepping stone or balanced arrangement of sumi markings moving down the body and absent of sumi on the head. Whereas the showa has the strength and power of a sumi wrapped pattern covering part of the face in the ideal standard. This is not mandatory of course but the ideal show specimens tend to repeat or work around this basic description. certainly calling a showa a showa or a snale a sanke JUST BECAUSE it has sumi on the head or lacks sumi on the head is superficial.
So I would put this standard description/ requirement lower on the list for identifying the two one way or the other.
Hope this helps to stimulate a closer look at sanke that look like showa.

Our fish #2 by the way, is very sanke like with only hints of showa crossing. JR

[smithvillemike]

If it was me...

cull
cull
keep
keep

but only you can decide based upon what you still have in your pond.

Making room for a Dainichi?

[Flounder]

Thanks for replying y'all, especially you JR. I always like to read anything you post. It's very educational.

Well, as usual the koi judge got the sex right. There is only one female in the group and that is #3. Number 2 is a sanke, when originally bought in the spring of '06 it did not have the sumi on its nose but now it does, which is something I like it. I need to find the pic of these when i first got them.

I'm very suprised that most like #3, the lone female. This one was bought for the pattern as well as the rest and it has changed greatly. These were my first better quality koi and I would keep them if I had the room.

JR, please explain the pecs further.

[Flounder]

Quote: Originally Posted by dtran6 Ryan, If you ever want to cull some your koi again, please let me know because I'm sure I can find someone in the Port Arthur area that would gladly pay you for them. Heck, I might even take a few.

David, I thought you got some from Ralph recently, you still have room?

[JasPR]

Sure, pec fins are a whole subject in and of themselves. Pecs can vary in size and shape based on sex and lines of koi. And if you take a minute to notice, young koi and mature koi really have different fins. The fish skin thickens and changes just as a fish's body skin changes with age.
The things to really look at and study in this area are :

* The leading ray of the pec fin ( the 'bone' that supports the fin itself)
* The rays within the fin ( the tny micro bones of the fin)
* The joint and center of the fin ( this is a thicker area of flesh at the base of the fin and can often carry color cells in it - aka motoguru or sumi motoguru or sanke striping)
* And edges of the fin

These fins are very delicate and can be deformed by both water conditions and by physical damage. And they can heal quickly or slowly depending on location and the 'physics' involved when 'injury meets swimming action/movement'.
very often you see pec fins that are over grown. This is condition of food type/amount and temperature extremes as the fish grows. Fish that grow too fast or fish that are crowded or exposed to a lot of ammonia, nitrate etc can have stunted fins or other oddities like bent rays or over grown soft tissue of the fin. Males tend to get over grown rays easier than females. They can actually be clipped like finger nails.
Swimming action ( the ability to exercise and move normally) and along with oxygen levels can also effect pec fin development.
torn fins can be a very upsetting thing. Some times they grow back as if nothing ever happened and other times the edges heal on themsleves and you are stuck with a permenant split fin unless you trim it and allow it to re-heal.

Your fish seem to have a number of pec fin issues ( the pictures could be miselading however?) But do I see bent rays? And a shortor cut fin? And an over grown ray- like a bone sticking out of the fin profile? And a split fin? JR

[Lau Teck Seng]

JR,

"They can actually be clipped like finger nails." Can you elaborate more on this ? Cut with scissors ? Apply iodine on cut area ? Thanks . I have a few kois with curl fins towards the tip , looks like the #3 showa. Should i cut at start of curl on the leading rays only or all down the rays within the fins ?

The deformed fins on my kois are unlikely due to netting as i very seldom , if i can manage at all, catch them .

thanks
ts

[dtran6]

Quote: Originally Posted by Flounder David, I thought you got some from Ralph recently, you still have room?

No, My uncle and brother got some from Ralph.....I was the middle man (Ralph didn't cut me a share though...lol)

btw...I would Cull, keep, Cull, keep if it was me.