Keep or Cull?

[saratogatan]

JR,
besides emotional attachment to a koi, how much does a 'not so idea pec' fin affects the show value of koi ? for example, the mature champion of the last All Japan show (?) seems to be growing thumbs, and that did not seems to bother the judes ? (She ws a sanke, owner was from china). That have been bugging me since the day I saw the pic in Nichirin.

stan

[JasPR]

Stan, the decision on a pec fin is broken ( no pun intended!) into a deformity or an injury as a general review.

In the fine points of judging of these things, however, you need to know that there are:

1) deficiencies - when something that should be there is missing! Deficiencies can be either innate or acquired. they can range in seriousness from automatic disqualification to fault. Generally speaking, a deficiency is more serious than a defect. But the lines can cross when you are comparing a minor deficiency against a really major defect. Just remember that deficiencies can and often do lead to disqualification.

2) defects - are shortcomings or failures of some element. These can be ranked in 'degrees'. So we have small defects, medium defects and large defects. Large defects can count for as much as 50% of the judging decision but usually not complete disqualification ,whereas deficiencies can cause a fish to not even be allowed to compete at all. I have judged fish with such serious defects ( like giant aeromonas scars) that were so bad, they were still judged but were automatically starting out in last place due to the defect.

Now here's the thing- defects take on a sliding scale of importance (regardless of small medium or large) based on the age and size of the fish. Things that are a big deal in a young fish might loose importance in the larger fish. But still a defect is a fault and should reduce points ( if judging on a point system). But that make down could be as little as 5% on a large fish with a small defect in a show where the fish is far superior to competition in every other way.

In the case of pecs- a missing pec fin ( or leading ray) would be a deficiency in all age groups and a DQ. It would not matter if the fish was born that way or lost it in an accident.
But a fish with a bent ray or an over grown ray might be considered a serious defect and reduce the points on a young fish by a full 50%. Yet on an older fish of say, great size, an overgrown ray might be ignored or simply marked down 5- 10%. JR

[gcuss]

JR, thank you for the insight first off...

Quote: But a fish with a bent ray or an over grown ray might be considered a serious defect and reduce the points on a young fish by a full 50%. Yet on an older fish of say, great size, an overgrown ray might be ignored or simply marked down 5- 10%. JR

I'm curious what criteria would be considered when determining the amount of deduction given to a young fish with a fin problem. Would it be based on the degree of deformity of the fin? Or is it based more on other factors such as the quality and strengths in the other areas? Or the third option... a combination of both?

Thanks!

Grant

[JasPR]

Both. Young fish, generally speaking, are penalized more for defects than adult koi. This is why I mentioned innate traits and 'acquired traits'. "Stuff happens" to koi that have been around awhile. A missing scale, a dent on the side of the skull, a missing eye lens ( A VERY common defect by the way).
Those fish that get by the culling net with innate or congential deformities and defects need to be weeded out of the show as an efficiency thing and as a teaching lesson. This is important and the young fish are marked hard.
As they age, some deformities that were less obvious become more obvious with size/age and these things need to be acknowledged. At the same time, fish, being fish, are beginning to accrue physical injuries that become monor or major defects as they experience 'life' in captivity ( nets, bowls, accidents).

And finally, as you might imagine, there are big defects that are absolutely 'deal killers' in and of themselves ( a fish that goes blind for instance - that can be considered a deficiency or a defect depending on specific criteria). And there are defects ( always undesirable) that are really only going to matter based on the competition challenging that particular fish on that particular day. Exhibitors don't always realize this and think that some judges are 'ok' with a defect but other judges are not at the next show taht the fish is entered in. It could be that the judges are on exactly the same page at the different shows but the competition of the day allows for different results ( this assumes defect and not deficiency of course).
JR

[gcuss]

I started typing and realized the hijacking of the thread... I'll start a new.

Thank you for your help JR. Much appreciated.

Grant

[Flounder]

Continuation of the keep or cull?

Tancho Sanke & Sanke