Judging Young Koi

[gcuss]

So here is my basic understanding...

A young fish must have:

Good to excellent colour (tone/evenness/placement)
Good confirmation (relative to age)
Free from genetic deficiencies
Little to no defects
Reasonably flashy/sharp looking pattern
Good representation of classification
plus I'm sure many others...

One curious point for me would be unfinished colour...

In the example of underlying sumi. How is that looked at? If a fish has some sumi that is up at the surface, but also has a lot of sumi that is coming is the grey area looked at as a fault? Or is it ignored? In the case of a Shiro Utsuri, would it be considered if perhaps the steps of sumi leading to the tail were in varying degrees of completion? We'll say the first 3 steps were nice and black, the fourth was underlying, and the remaining steps to the tail were finished nicely. I'm guessing that it can't ever be considered a plus, as the fish is being judged "on the day" and sumi that hasn't come up isn't there on the day.

Also, is it incumbent on the judge to try and determine if beni is consolidating or fading away and how (if at all) is that looked at in terms of judging?

Seems a lot is to be considered when judging Koi...

Thanks,

Grant

[MikeM]

You are looking for a more finished look all around. Award winners in the small sizes seldom are capable of repeating in the larger sizes. Early bloomers do not usually bloom again at maturity.

[koiczar]

Grant

Your first question concerning the sumi on a Shiro Utsuri - I really don't think you would call them "steps" like a Kohaku (dorsal patterned) variety. The sumi should "wrap" so maybe you could call it "banding". Now, the example you gave, of a young "developing" fish is one that should not be considered for the show ring - yet! As MikeM points out, it's the "best on the day" and if all the components are not ready, it shouldn't be shown. Grow the fish for a couple years, wait and see what that underlying sumi does, then decide if it's show ready or not. Competition at shows is becoming stiffer, more hobbyists are getting serious about their fish in the smaller sizes, and therefore, there's less and less room for "unfinished" fish to compete.

As far as beni is concerned, I would look at the overall condition of the fish. If there are two that are very close in quality otherwise, and it came down to it, I'm sure the one with the consolidating beni would win over the "over the hill" fish as the skin quality would more than likely show a more youthful look and be bright and shiny, whereas the fish that's on it's way down could show some dulling of the skin and have a flatter look to the "wet paint" theory mostly applied now a days.

Mike

[gcuss]

Quote: Originally Posted by koiczar Grant Your first question concerning the sumi on a Shiro Utsuri - I really don't think you would call them "steps" like a Kohaku (dorsal patterned) variety. The sumi should "wrap" so maybe you could call it "banding". Now, the example you gave, of a young "developing" fish is one that should not be considered for the show ring - yet! As MikeM points out, it's the "best on the day" and if all the components are not ready, it shouldn't be shown. Grow the fish for a couple years, wait and see what that underlying sumi does, then decide if it's show ready or not. Competition at shows is becoming stiffer, more hobbyists are getting serious about their fish in the smaller sizes, and therefore, there's less and less room for "unfinished" fish to compete. As far as beni is concerned, I would look at the overall condition of the fish. If there are two that are very close in quality otherwise, and it came down to it, I'm sure the one with the consolidating beni would win over the "over the hill" fish as the skin quality would more than likely show a more youthful look and be bright and shiny, whereas the fish that's on it's way down could show some dulling of the skin and have a flatter look to the "wet paint" theory mostly applied now a days. Mike

Great explanation. Thank you. I personally don't have a SU in the described state, but seemed like an obvious one to envision for the sake of the example. (my Shiro is almost completely white with a dab or two here and there of some very nice sumi. The white is excellent but the confirmation is why I bought him... he's just a baby now, but maybe in a few years.. you never know! Exciting for me anyway)

Thanks again,

Grant

[Super Kindai]

[quote=gcuss;114742]So here is my basic understanding...

In the example of underlying sumi. How is that looked at? If a fish has some sumi that is up at the surface, but also has a lot of sumi that is coming is the grey area looked at as a fault? Or is it ignored?


It is not always a fault and is not ignored. it is often preferred...........

[schildkoi]

[quote=Super Kindai;114877]

Quote: Originally Posted by gcuss So here is my basic understanding... In the example of underlying sumi. How is that looked at? If a fish has some sumi that is up at the surface, but also has a lot of sumi that is coming is the grey area looked at as a fault? Or is it ignored? It is not always a fault and is not ignored. it is often preferred...........

Unfinished sumi can be looked at this way...niether a fault nor a preference. As an example, if there was a rating system from -10 to +10, faults would be in the negative (amount dependent on severity) and qulities of attributes in the positive. Finished sumi would be positive with the degre dependent on the quality of such and amount finished...the more the better. so a koi with totally unfinished beni may be a "0". This is one reason why the better quality koi may not always win...it may simply be "unfinished" and the best koi on the day wins.

That's kind of a "rough" description but hopefully puts it into perspective for you.

Steve

[JasPR]

Right. Grant you have everything you stated correct . Mike's comments about wrapped are also spot on. And "kindai" is also correct in that, in the ideal , a young koi is preferred to be finished as this is a beauty contest. But just as the conformation is fine if it is normal for the age and a good example for the age, so to is finish acceptable based on the age and stage of development a fish is in. So this becomes a subjective element that must be evaluated based on the individual before the judges and then ranked strictly based on the competition of the day. If the competition is weak, a very unfinished fish might win and make the 'rules' look meaningless. This is the challenge of koi judging in America. JR

Here is a picture of a baby champion that reflects the 'ideal' as per the standard. It is finished, highly colored ( rich colors of quality) and has a very pleaseing pattern.

[gcuss]

Thank you to everyone for the explanations. Being a newbie, I figure this will be the category I'll be competing in for the first few years so I might as well get a grasp on what I'm after.

So to see if I've got it right...

Unfinished (beni/sumi) isn't necessarily a fault, but can't really count in the positives either. If the competition of the day is soft, a fish can win despite having a few areas of unfinished colour...

Personally, I have two "later" fish and a few "now" fish. One of my "later" fish I think has the best confirmation of all but of course, the color and pattern are pretty much a dog's breakfast right now. It had been suggested to me to take the fish to a show anyway, not expecting to do well, but perhaps expand my education by hearing what a judge might be able to tell me about where the fish may be headed... Is this frowned upon and possibly seen as wasting people's time? With the explanations provided it sounds like it may not be a total waste...

JR - What a beautiful fish you posted as an example.

The showa that Super Kindai posted... would you take those to a show? (not you in particular) but would something like that be worthwhile? I'm going to take a stab at answering my own question and say: It would depend on the person's collection and what they were after. If you already have some youngster's that are more finished, then the answer would be no, but if that size category is something you'd like to compete in and that's all you have for that size, then yes, take them along... ???

I think I'm just trying to get a feel for what people are willing to bring. I don't need any extra help in embarrassing myself and would rather avoid it if possible...

Thanks again!

Grant

[Super Kindai]

JasPR, I believe that you can explain it well for fellow guys in here. ( I can't explain it well w/ my English ability.)

On the other hand....
Attraction of sumie, an Indian‐ink drawing, a black‐and‐white painting, in Nishikigoi.

[Super Kindai]

Quote: Originally Posted by gcuss The showa that Super Kindai posted... would you take those to a show? (not you in particular) but would something like that be worthwhile? I'm going to take a stab at answering my own question and say: It would depend on the person's collection and what they were after. If you already have some youngster's that are more finished, then the answer would be no, but if that size category is something you'd like to compete in and that's all you have for that size, then yes, take them along... ??? Grant

I know that it would confuse..... The showa that I posted are (from left to right)
Young Champion at Kanagawa-prefecture Koi show. 38bu and 43bu Kokugyo award (best in size) at All Japan Young Koi show 2007.