Sumi Talk...

[PapaBear]

Sumi seems to be an appropriate discussion with the growouts going on around here, so I thought I'd bring it up to see what some of the experience voices have to say.

As expected in the Shiro growout some of the fish have built sumi very well. some have done a bit of a disappearing act, others have remained about the same as they started. No doubt the experience with the Showa's will follow suit, so examining some of the whys seems good to me.

We all know that genetics is the major player no matter the variety with water and diet coming in a close 2nd, so lets toss the genetics in first.

Shiro Utsuri are considered a "black skinned" fish with white spreading genes that build white skin layers on above the black base.

Old style Showa are likewise considered black fish with white and red color cells building on top of the black base.

Kohaku and Sanke are white skinned fish with Red and/or black color cells building on the white base.

Kindai Showa are a genetic mixture of black skin and white skin fish producing red color cells, white cells, and black cells.

What are the differences genetically and environmentally that influence the way the sumi, shiroji, and beni develop on these different varieties in your opinions?

In the case of Utsuri and old style Showa, does the water/food over or under feed the melanin production alone, or are we also over/under feeding the shiroji? Watching the way some of the shiro's have reacted in the hands of different ponds/ponders makes me wonder if we may be overlooking the dietary and water chemistry side of white cell development while concentrating our attention and efforts on the Sumi.

With the Showa growout, we're dealing with a somewhat different beast. They appear to be primarily Kindai, which means we're watching the type of Sumi and Shiroji from Sanke as well and they develop and mature differently than traditional Showa.

I think it will be very interesting to see how the Shiro's and Kindai showa fare in the hands of ponders who have great success with traditional Showa or Sanke or Kohaku.

Anyone have any thoughts on my ponderings??? Is my thinking on building Shiroji on black skin relevant, or off base???

Curious to hear from the voices of experience.

[dick benbow]

Larry, I think what is difficult to build knowledge on is the slippery slope that gets us to where we're going.

As you indicated, today's modern Shiro's were RE-invented from Showa
at the time that they were being beni strengthened from Kohaku. Today's modern showa have been sumi strengthened by the addition of Sanke.

In mixing up the lines, different breeders using different keito, I don't think it's possible to get a clear picture of expectation.

Omosako in interviews published earlier with KB indicated he sees 5 different kinds of developing sumi. he was criticised as a breeder for having smaller koi that could not compete for size with gosanke. ( no criticism about quality tho ) So since that time he has sought and acquired and bred a bigger growing line to cross over into his own. I quess my point is that each breeder sees his results differently than another and their own vision of where they want to go with it has them constantly changing the direction and genetics.

What has always fascinated me is how the same water source among two different owners only miles apart can give such different results. I quess we see that in the mud ponds of japan, where some develop sumi or beni better than the other. All of these variables among conditions and genetics make it a tuff nut to crack. Still, we as koi keepers like the breeders we admire must search for answers within our own vision and resources and capabilities.

That said, it is often said of this hobby that we should not focus on the destination but enjoy the journey. So, as always it's fun to add new fish to our collection and to try and learn what they are telling us about our ability as a water/Koi keeper. I end my thoughts this way because the genetics is the breeder's job, the water keeping is ours. My problem is the more i learn of it the more I realize i have to learn.

[PapaBear]

Thanks Dick, and your response is pretty much why I asked. We have so many different variables in the genetic mix that very few of the "dark" varieties are going to follow the old rules, with Shiro's quite likely being the closest we can come to a true "dark skinned" fish most of the time.

What are your thoughts on Feeding White vs. Feeding Black? Taking the genetic profiles into consideration of course, there is still the matter of the environment (both in terms of water chemistry and feed content) being a contributing factor in the way both are built up, broken down, enhanced, or degraded.

For shiroji of course we avoid colorants of any kind in the feed and attempt to maintain soft water of moderate ph values to maintain a youthful elasticity. So far as I'm aware colorants likewise add nothing of value to the construct of deep melanin, but at least in the case of our Utsuri's is there not the need to provide something of value to maximize the potential of both the melanin production and at the same time feed the ability of the white spreading gene to perform at it's best?

[dick benbow]

One of the things that would be important to me in studying a breeder's koi is to ask them what they breed for. In example, a shiro Utsuri breeder may breed for Shiroji or they may breed for sumi. With that knowledge I might have a better expectation as to what to anticipate in both.

of course in showa, Beni now becomes a consideration and what does that breeder strive to focus on. It may sound like a small matter but if I'm a breeder and I sort by the white because I know the sumi is there and will come, it might make a difference as a collector to also have the same viewpoint.

Another important point that should be considered is I may be wrong here but it is my impression most American koi keepers don't really understand the length of time it takes for a Shiro utsuri or Kindai Showa to actually finish. Too often they are opted out way before their time. 6-8 years is an honest period to invest in their development. Unfortunately I see them hitting the road after a year or two.....

[koiczar]

Hi Guys

Good thought provoking discussion Larry and some good responses Dick. I agree, being in line with the same thoughts, ideas as to what the breeder is trying to develop is important. Likewise, the selection of the fish is also paramount to that "way of thinking". I have tried several times to get a very nice quality shiro over the years. My water was hard, therefore sumi should develop well. Again, depending on the fish, it does and it doesn't. So, last year, my trip to Japan was solely to acquire a "high quality" shiro if nothing else! We looked at several different breeders, until I thought I found what I was looking for - an ake Yonsai of some 60cm! We even went to a mud pond harvest of a pond with nothing but shiro sansai. Unfortunately, that pond's fish did not turn out as the breeder hoped. Hardly any sumi - boy were they disappointed! Then they took us to the "secret greenhouse" where some of their "tategoi" were being kept. I saw two sansai Shiro there that almost caused me to fall into the pond. They were both over 65cm and ake sansai! So, we took a couple pics of each and proceeded back to the main greenhouse. I got the price of one but the other was "not for sale" as it was to be entered into the Nogyosai and All Japan Shows. Okay, so now what? Well, we had been to this breeder's facility three times that week and right under my feet was this ake yonsai. The breeder bowled her up for me and did I get a shock! He even felt the sumi was better than his #2 ake sansai. I REALLY wanted a shiro with a menware/hachiware pattern on the face - that was one criteria I was set on - LOL - Well, this fish didn't have it but from what I could see, she had black around both eyes and the promise of sumi coming from the cheek/chin area. The sumi/shiroji was some of the best I had seen over the years, so I bought it. I even got teased that I had foregone my "criteria" about the menware. I didn't care at that point as I was satisfied that improvement would come later.

I know, I haven't mentioned the breeder up to this point! Would you believe this fish came from a breeder not known by many for his Gosanke/shiro? That's right, she came from Hosokai. Over the past three years, I have come to understand this breeder's history a bit and have found that he is really an unknown "treasure chest" of some very high quality gosanke/shiro among the Asagi and Goshiki he IS famous for.

So, back to Dick's thoughts about being in line with the breeder and as a side note, remember to "buy the fish" not the breeder! Let me see if I can post a recent photo of her from an "in-pond" perspective. BTW, ALL the sumi on the face has come up over the last 6 months and is still improving. The band along the back of the head is starting to come in now. The photo does not really do her strong colors justice but I think you can get the idea!

Mike

[dick benbow]

thanks for sharing your thoughts and photo....