Ginrin....how much?

[Ethan25]

My question is basically, can a koi have all ginrin scales over the entire body? Has anyone seen this before? The most recent koi I purchased was a kohaku that had ginrin, although not completely even, but a very decent amount and heavy. It doesn't compare to my sanke, though, in either quality or quantity of gin. From what I understand, ginrin is basically a scale that has guanine in it, correct? That is what reflects the light????

From KOI LIVING JEWELS OF THE ORIENT, it states that the fish should have more reflective scales than one is able to count as the koi passes by, around 20. However, I have heard that the koi should have 3 rows of ginrin scales down from the dorsal, as well as being even. This would account for more than 20.

THe thing is, I am almost convinced that my ginrin sanke has ginrin over a majority of all the scales, even past the lateral line. It is hard to tell from a photograph, but here are a couple that show what I think I am talking about.

Do any of you have a ginrin that shows the ginrin scales going this far down?

[Ethan25]

Here's another shot of when it was younger and had that nice yellow head (that I have since gotten rid of). See how the scales show the ginrin all the way down to the belly? ANd a shot of the fish as a baby. Now this purchase was before I knew anything about koi. I saw this one and thought, "now that looks nice and shiney....I'll pick that one".

pattern isn't great, but that's why I am talking ginrin.

Thanks for any comments and insight.

EThan

[CarolinaGirl]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ethan25 Here's another shot of when it was younger and had that nice yellow head (that I have since gotten rid of). EThan

you got rid of it's head???

(sorry....couldn't resist....... )

[JasPR]

Hi,
ginrin is to be viewed from above as a dorsal orientation. It is a scale feature but the same guanine in the skin is also in these scales in crystalized form. The setting of the crystals is what gives the different types of gin.
Three rows of scales rule was created as a requirement for show fish by the ZNA. It is the arrangment and uniformity of these rows that makes for a good show fish. So how they run down the fish is most important. This means no spaces and no deformed scales or mixes of different types of ginrin.
In the crudest form, ginrin was a natural mutation in fish's belly and a random trait. This was a form of camouflage when the scales were really silver. Added to this was the positioning of white color cells that appear silvery when located under the scale. If you think about it, a carp is dark above and silvery below to avoid predators from above and from below. Looking up at the koi's silvery white belly should make it hard to see against the bright shiny water surface.
The Japanese bred this trait into the upper portion of the body so it could be enjoyed from above. And you can still fond koi with ginrin located below the lateral line in a random fashion. JR

[MCA]

Hard to find a scale that is not GR.

[Ethan25]

Quote: Originally Posted by CarolinaGirl you got rid of it's head??? (sorry....couldn't resist....... )

it was a difficult procedure.....

[Ethan25]

Quote: Originally Posted by CarolinaGirl you got rid of it's head??? (sorry....couldn't resist....... )

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Hi, ginrin is to be viewed from above as a dorsal orientation. It is a scale feature but the same guanine in the skin is also in these scales in crystalized form. The setting of the crystals is what gives the different types of gin. Three rows of scales rule was created as a requirement for show fish by the ZNA. It is the arrangment and uniformity of these rows that makes for a good show fish. So how they run down the fish is most important. This means no spaces and no deformed scales or mixes of different types of ginrin. In the crudest form, ginrin was a natural mutation in fish's belly and a random trait. This was a form of camouflage when the scales were really silver. Added to this was the positioning of white color cells that appear silvery when located under the scale. If you think about it, a carp is dark above and silvery below to avoid predators from above and from below. Looking up at the koi's silvery white belly should make it hard to see against the bright shiny water surface. The Japanese bred this trait into the upper portion of the body so it could be enjoyed from above. And you can still fond koi with ginrin located below the lateral line in a random fashion. JR

Thanks, JR. Ginrin has always intrigued me. I know it can be a distraction for some fish...others that may not have quite the pattern may be enhanced by ginrin though, such as mine. My black is just starting to really come through, and conquer the gin. I will be esctatic if the black comes in on the bare left side with all that shiro. There's some starting to show, and I hope it really does come up! It is so difficult to get a shot (especially if you have a pathetic camera). The flash always messes with the picture.
see?

[saratogatan]

To have ginrin is like having the most beautiful, body perfect lady standing naked in front of you, but her whole body is covered with diamonds. You only see the diamonds, not the real deal.

(ladies, please feel free to replace words like 'lady' with proper counterpart for male)

stan

[Ethan25]

Quote: Originally Posted by saratogatan To have ginrin is like having the most beautiful, body perfect lady standing naked in front of you, but her whole body is covered with diamonds. You only see the diamonds, not the real deal. (ladies, please feel free to replace words like 'lady' with proper counterpart for male) stan

see, I already have that perfect lady. These ginrin beauties come second...

[Fishbreeder]

Just to add a bit to JR's usual excellent reply....

One thing I look for in Ginrin (assuming even rows of ginrin scales) is the area just behind the head and just forward of the dorsal fin. This is one area that is usually weak with respect to ginrin. Many otherwise very nice ginrin koi are missing ginrin scales in that area.

Another indicator of strong ginrin is that the ginrin scales go all the way around the fish. Many koi only have two to four rows of ginrin scales along the back and down the side. However, in very strong examples of ginrin the ginrin scales are found from top to bottom and all the rows of scales, even those on the very bottom of the belly are ginrin.

Ginrin scales seems to be strongly sex linked, following the male. My best ginrin koi are bred from ginrin male but normal scaled females. Ginrin male to ginrin female is done, but the fry are extraordinarily weak and have poor survival.

Ginrin female to non ginrin male gives a very low yeild of ginrin offspring, usually with weak ginrin scales.

Brett