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Thread: Shallow Ponds and Jumbo Koi

  1. #11
    Oyagoi Lam Nguyen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugeneg View Post
    I think that it was a case of more money than abilities. If one looks at the sides of the pond it is very amaturish work. The amount of water flow at 4 times turnover signifies 20,000 gal per HR or 333 gal a minute. If through a baki shower the water has to be pumped 10ft up. No shortage of money for electrical cost, In a warm climate this leads to exta evaporation . Then a cooling system had to be used as the pond is shallow and suseptible to tem change . With that flow of water fish get excersize but not allowed to swim up . Nice looking fish shows that jumo tosai with growth potential purchased . If one could not dig deeper then one could build up with insulated sides . If one wanted to keep cooler then shade in a warm climate . I would say it is a case of someone who is a die hard with lots of money that built an Aquascape pond and tried to make it in to a koi pond.
    As I see it
    Regards
    Eugene
    Eugene, I respect your opinion, but I am going to have to agree with Larry on this one. Yotti and David Soon are very well respected koi hobbyists in their countries who are forerunners with their use of cavitation and ozone and pure oxygenation technologies. I don't know about Yotti, but I do know that David has entrants at the AJKS annually and does quite well. The second thread that I attached to one of my previous posts talks about David's 2'9" deep pond build with DOB (I still don't know what this is yet) technology. If you look at the AJKS caliber koi that he brought back from Japan to be placed in this shallow pond, then you will see that he is very serious and show quality koi collector. Like what Larry said, I think that bricks are readily available in that part of the world and the temperate climate is conducive to shallow ponds. Just my opinion.

  2. #12
    Oyagoi gcuss's Avatar
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    ...build with DOB (I still don't know what this is yet) technology.
    Hi Lam,

    Ditto Oxygenation Box - DOB

    You can google it all day and find nothing... ( I tried ) But here's what I managed to get from my efforts.

    Here's a picture of it. And from my understanding, it uses cavitation nozzles internally and potentially drives the O2 to saturation (and beyond according to claims made by the manufacturer)

    Interesting stuff. It's a different education reading what they use in totally different climates to overcome their geographical restrictions.

    Grant
    Last edited by gcuss; 03-06-2009 at 02:59 PM. Reason: forgot something....

  3. #13
    Jumbo ikoi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lam Nguyen View Post
    I am starting this thread in response to the comments posted by Victor (ikoi) in a previous thread about raising jumbo koi in shallow ponds. Can koi grow to jumbo size in shallow ponds? IMO, the answer to this question is yes, but it comes with a huge price/sacrifice. Here is the link to the thread that was posted by Victor again:

    http://www.koi.com.my/cgi-bin/koiforum/gforum.cgi?post=111393;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC ;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unre ad

    Yotti’s pond is ~18 tons or ~5,000 gallons in total volume. The main pond is 12 tons and his filtration is 6 tons, which is 50% of his main pond’s total volume. His pond is only 3’ deep. Yotti utilizes the conventional up and downflow filtration w/ Jmats and a bakki shower. His pond is circulated 4-5 times/hour. This creates huge currents for his koi to exercise. He also uses 16 air pumps and a pure oxygen generator to oxygenate his pond. On top of that he also uses a chiller to keep his pond temp comfortably at 23 degrees Celsius. He also has an automatic feeder and has a flow-through water exchange. He had up to 64 koi in his pond at one time, although he is now down to 20 koi, of which most are over 70bu in length.

    Yotti is not the only hobbyist in SE Asia who has had great success with raising jumbo koi in shallow ponds. I hope he doesn’t mind me mentioning his name, but David Soon, who goes by David & Kelvin in the Japanese show circuit, also uses ponds that are only 3’ deep to grow his koi to jumbo size. In fact, here is the link to his new 2’9” pond build thread. From looking at the caliber of koi that are stocked in this pond, it’s obvious that he knows what he is doing!

    http://www.koi.com.my/cgi-bin/koiforum/gforum.cgi?post=112176;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC ;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;guest=

    While shallow ponds may be effective in warmer climate regions, it does not work well in colder climates where ponds freeze over during the winter time. Also, shallow ponds have more surface area to provide greater air-to-water oxygen exchange.

    I hope that others who have had success with growing jumbo koi in shallow ponds would chime in and share their experiences.

    Lam,

    Thank you for starting this separate thread. Hope we all can learn more about it. I heard that Hydro Cavitation box, which coverts normal pond water in water that's filled with oxygen only. No Nitrogen, no carbon dioxide , but purely oxygen. Clean and pure oxygen cleanse the internal of the fish as well. No need to eat any supplements to improve the skins or shiroji. Just wonder that anyone here uses it? Do you know whether it's available in the US?

    Cheers,
    Victor

  4. #14
    Oyagoi Eugeneg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaBear View Post
    I'm afraid you underestimate the hobbyists in question. Comparing what they have to a modified Aquascape pond really misses the mark horribly. Chillers are fairly common there even in deep ponds as 28 deg C is pretty much "normal" water temperature all year. The use of brick and mortar for pond construction is commonplace as the materials and labor are readily available and comparatively strong and inexpensive.
    Larry 6ft doubles pond volume on same foot print which is desirable in any climate. Chilling can be cut down by depth and a trellice . Trellice makes it possible to view fish rather than sky. Brick was shoddily used does not look asthetically pleasing. I maintain that it is not well thought out . More money here than reaserch ,taste and brains
    Regards
    Eugene

  5. #15
    MCA
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    Honmei MCA's Avatar
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    I guess I am old fashioned. Our pond is 8'.

    I know of no substitute for depth in order to provide:
    • more water volume (a positive)
    • slower temp changes (due to more contact with earth)
    • vertical muscle and swim bladder exercise
    • inexpensive way to create serious current (with low power consumption air pumps creating currents from rising air bubbles instead of more power consumption with water pumps).

  6. #16
    Oyagoi Lam Nguyen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCA View Post
    I guess I am old fashioned. Our pond is 8'.


    I know of no substitute for depth in order to provide:
    • more water volume (a positive)
    • slower temp changes (due to more contact with earth)
    • vertical muscle and swim bladder exercise
    • inexpensive way to create serious current (with low power consumption air pumps creating currents from rising air bubbles instead of more power consumption with water pumps).
    Hi Michael, if you don't mind, I would like to pick your brain a little bit.

    In terms of more water volume, how would correlate this with t/o rate? What I am trying to say is, while more water volume may lead to slower temp changes (your 2nd point) and more water stability, if it is not turned over frequently enough then the ambient ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate as well as pheromones will still be there. Whereas if you have a smaller pond like Yotti's where you are turning over 4-5x/hr I am sure that there shouldn't be any traces of these agents.

    How important is vertical movement to koi development? What I am trying to say is, can this be offset by having a shallow pond with lots of rapid water circulation for horizontal exercise? If you look at Yotti's jumbos, they look like they have quite a girth to them.

    Also, if you were to redo your pond over again, would you make it deeper? Or do you think that 8' is deep enough? Just pickin' your brain is all!

  7. #17
    Jumbo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugeneg View Post
    Larry 6ft doubles pond volume on same foot print which is desirable in any climate. Chilling can be cut down by depth and a trellice . Trellice makes it possible to view fish rather than sky. Brick was shoddily used does not look asthetically pleasing. I maintain that it is not well thought out . More money here than reaserch ,taste and brains
    Regards
    Eugene
    I don't think I know how to judge if the pond owners/designs in SE Asia have less brain than people in Northern America. Personally, I know they have a lot of brain for them to be that successful in their country.

    In SE Asia, material is very limite, for example, gunite is not that readily available. people there has developed skills to solve their problem. Yes, the pond(s) may look bad, but they are looking at koi, not pond. I happen to know of a few ponds in SE ASIA that make most koi ponds in Northern America looks like chicken coop. However, that doesn't make us lesser koi hobbists.

    All in all, there is not an absolute standard in this hobby. It is all about learning and appreciation.

    stan

  8. #18
    Oyagoi gcuss's Avatar
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    Maybe I'm blind... But I don't see shoddy workmanship here...

    I see something I'd be proud of. And with the steel bars running horizontally, and past practice (same type of pond, same build, 17 years old with no problems....) I'd say the construction is sound.

    As for deeper is better? I think I'd have to agree. I'm just lucky enough to live where there is no problem with water supply and I need the depth for temp stability. I don't imagine they see the kind of temp. swings I have to live with here...

    Grant

  9. #19
    MCA
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    Honmei MCA's Avatar
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    Hi Michael, if you don't mind, I would like to pick your brain a little bit.
    That won't take long...there is less to pick every day.

    In terms of more water volume, how would correlate this with t/o rate? What I am trying to say is, while more water volume may lead to slower temp changes (your 2nd point) and more water stability, if it is not turned over frequently enough then the ambient ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate as well as pheromones will still be there. Whereas if you have a smaller pond like Yotti's where you are turning over 4-5x/hr I am sure that there shouldn't be any traces of these agents.
    In order to achieve good water quality you have to turnover the water through the filters fast enough so that that you created (by the amount of food you feeding and the stock level) is being handled. I would arge that it is the load...not the water volume that drives the need for a given turn over rate. The big negative in faster turnover rates is usally the power consumption for more/larger water pumps.

    Also, if you were to redo your pond over again, would you make it deeper? Or do you think that 8' is deep enough? Just pickin' your brain is all!
    When we launched our pond we had Dr. David Knox (for those that know him) at the event. Standing in front of him a woman asked how deep the pond was. I said it was 8'. She said it would be difficult with such depth, but she was willing to help us build PVC plant stands. I though Dr. Knox would choke as he quickly put his hand over his mouth and walked away. I had to thank her and tell her it was 8" because the backhoe we could fit into the yard would only reach down 6'. So I had to settle for 8' (2'up and 6' down. She never did get it that this was a koi pond. IMHO the only negative about pond depth is that you do need to be able to net the fish. There will be a combination of width and depth where even the longest pond net handles are too short. Summary...would build an 8' to 3m deep pond again in a heartbeat!
    Koi keeping is not a belief system; it is applied science with a touch of artistry.

  10. #20
    Oyagoi Eugeneg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saratogatan View Post
    I don't think I know how to judge if the pond owners/designs in SE Asia have less brain than people in Northern America. Personally, I know they have a lot of brain for them to be that successful in their country.

    In SE Asia, material is very limite, for example, gunite is not that readily available. people there has developed skills to solve their problem. Yes, the pond(s) may look bad, but they are looking at koi, not pond. I happen to know of a few ponds in SE ASIA that make most koi ponds in Northern America looks like chicken coop. However, that doesn't make us lesser koi hobbists.

    All in all, there is not an absolute standard in this hobby. It is all about learning and appreciation.

    stan
    I asked who buys these 5million yen Nisai and was told mostly Asian customers so you can bet that their ponds are some of the best. What was being shown was a 3ft pond. Just as long as a new person to the hobby does not get the wrong idea and does it and especially in Canada. Because of 3ft ponds most people will once again loose all their fish this winter and aquascape does a roaring business. We could easily send the wrong message. Not even state of the art 8ft deep ponds are completely
    the ideal other than finishing koi by nature a mud pond is the ideal for the other six months
    Regards
    Eugene

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