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Thread: Shallow Ponds and Jumbo Koi

  1. #51
    Jumbo DavidSoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaBear View Post
    Why still scratching your head Lam?

    In the West what he is achieving with the "System" he is using might be mistakenly referred to as something "He has stumbled on to". Good ideas often come our way by accident, followed by the observation of a surprising outcome.

    That is not the case here.

    Reading David's observations and thoughts is very much like reading a really good ramble from JR The terminology may not be precisely the same, but the understanding is very much alike. He is a very observant and studious Koi Kichi who has studied the "nature" of riverine carp well, and applied that to his ponds.

    He employs water management techniques that are well thought out, carefully designed, and highly effective. He promotes high oxygenation levels and strong currents to promote "sweeping" action to the floor of his ponds. You would find much the same in a wild river immediately downstream of rapids, a place where strong fish thrive and prosper.

    He uses sinking food, which is the way wild carp feed the vast majority of the time... on the bottom and edge areas. His ponds are shielded from predation, so the Koi have no need for deep water to hide in. Many of us need depth for shelter as much as for building bodies. The length of his ponds compensates for the lack of depth because of the strong currents. Most of us have greater depth because we feed floating food, which encourages the Koi to "dive and climb" when eating. This promotes building strong bodies in a less "current driven" environment.

    The thing that messes with most people who want a "too shallow" pond isn't the depth of the pond itself. It is the fact that 99% of the shallow ponds are shallow in every way. Shallow in design, shallow in understanding, shallow in experience, shallow in thought, shallow in skill, shallow in quality, shallow in wisdom...

    The depth of the water matters half as much as the depth of its Keeper

    Don't get me wrong. Deep ponds are good, unless the "Keeper" is shallow

    Brother Larry ,

    You read me , and my ponds , like a book ...
    It has been a year since this thread discussion was brought up , with brother Lam still figuring what could be right and what would not be approporiate or recommended over here ... .
    The level of stockings , water depth , growth , parameters etc .. etc .. could only be secondary discussions ...

    Key here , is Blessings and Faithfulness .

    Would any serious hobbyists in his sensible mind , be adding 18 fishes worth a few hundred grands into a newly constructed pond a week after construction ended ?? ......I did ...

    What could any experience hobbyists perceive , having 50/60cm koi dumped into a pond not more than 80 cm water height , and expect the kois to grow beyond 80cm in the fastest manner ???

    Would having 25 fishes , all above 70cm and fat as video had shown , growing in a water column not more than 18tonnes be deemed as way overcrowded , and expected them to thrive with projected growth in such an environment ??

    With my limited husbandry care and knowledge , I can't ...
    I have always been a Blessed man , and with Faith , I'm often seen as a defiant or unorthodox guy in many fields ... Breeders and hobbyists , used to see me as a defiant hobbyists , while guys in my workfield see me as a wierd weatherman .

    I owned , and operates , the only company in S.E.A , that conduct open sea operations for the last 20 years in the South China Sea . Working with storms and typhoons . One of my retired crew , who has been with me for 20 years , recently passed his job down to his son who is in his young 20's, and the first thing he said to his son was ....." Son , for the last 20 years , I had handed my life to this young man David , and with him , I had dressed you , educated you , provide for you and your siblings ..... today , I hand your life to this man " ..... This young man nodded , smiled , shook my hands and jumped on board the tug boat that headed straight out to the open sea .
    The old man turned and said to me , " Now , as much as I had handed my life and living to you , I now hand the life of my son and his livelihood to you , and I thank You "
    Before he could bow , I stopped him ... and I corrected him ...
    " For it has been my God that has watched over you guys in the open sea , and it was my God who had blessed you and many , and see you and your family through the last 20 years . For it was my God , who had dressed your family while you were out at sea , educate your son when you were not around , provided for your family and see you through till retirement today . It was your faith , that had brought us all to where we are today , for this , I thank you for your faithfulness in HIM .

    Apology for being a long-winded guy , but it was also with Blessings , and my faithfulness , that I'm able to substain all those fishes in my overcrowded shallow ponds , and my faithfulness allows them to grow and thrive in the most unorthodox condition any serious hobbyists would deemed unproper and never recommended .

    For some friends who had been closely following the developement of my 27tonne pond ( inclusive filters ) , they had seen how those fishes had grown and transform . Took back some of the D sanke offsprings . with one measuring 57bu and the other 59bu added in mid-january last year , and measured them last friday , and the 57bu D Sanke ( sansai - but not 3 years old year ) is now 77bu , while the other measured 75 . The tsukitsuke Kohaku that came back , measured 60bu when she was added at the same time , is now 78bu . Bought my Ochiba when she was 22cm 2 years ago , and had been dumping her in the 17 tonne pond and transfered her to the 27tonne pond last year , and has a whopping body that measures 84bu last Friday .. All these fishes are still in the videos recently taken by Hooinc ( Brother Paul ) ... with his mobile and posted on YouTube !!

    My ponds are by far , some of the worst or simply done , and nothing to be proud about , but the fruits it bore , came from my Trust in Him ..
    I can't advocate for shallow pond , but I would love to advocate for Faith.. Anything God Willing , it will be there , and anything not God willing ... dun try your luck .

    This is a Sunday , and I believe some sharing is allowed here ...

    Cheers and God Bless All , while we prepare for Easter next month .

    David

  2. #52
    Jumbo DavidSoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lam Nguyen View Post
    Larry, I must agree with others that your response is very well written. In your analogy of shallow versus deep, there are four possible scenarios: (1) shallow pond with shallow hobbyist, (2) shallow pond with deep hobbyist, (3) deep pond with shallow hobbyist, and (4) deep pond with deep hobbyist. While I agree with you that the majority of hobbyists with shallow ponds are those who are new to the hobby and who will quickly be undergoing several pond redos, there are also a minute few hobbyists with shallow ponds who I would not dare consider as shallow in knowledge, experience, and wisdom. As far as deep ponds is concerned, it is not the main focus of this thread and I will leave it at that.

    As an active member of this forum and a subscriber of Koi USA, it has been instilled in me that a pond is a closed "system" and that all "systems" are unique. While it is generally accepted that deeper pond is better for koi development, we cannot dispute the fact that shallow ponds are not good for koi development, esp in lieu of the fact that we know of several ponds in the SE Asia countries that are only one meter deep and yet the koi look healthy and robust with thick tail joint.

    In David Soon's case, in Paul's video, he mentioned that David's pond is very simple in design and that the filtration is 1/3 the pond volume and is filled with brushes and Jmats. Paul also mentioned that David recently experimented with a sieve before the longthrow filtration system. I believe that this is only a part of it because there is mention of David using water recycling system, hospital-grade oxygen generators, and other technological devices to keep his water in good quality.

    The bottom line is that all ponds are unique systems and, if well thought out, then depth does not matter when it comes to proper koi development. This is why I am still scratching my head.....it's because there are so many ways to design and build a system that is capable of raising koi to jumbo proportions and that it's extremely important that all the components that make up the system are well thought out so that they complement each other to make that particular system a success (i.e., in David Soon's case, he makes up for lack of depth by having chillers, rapid turnover, massive oxygenation, good water recycle system, proper 10-15% daily water change, huge filtration bay, etc).

    BTW, while I find David's shallow ponds interesting, I am still a firm believer in the deep pond and deep hobbyist at the end of the day.
    Hi Brother Lam

    The recycling systems that you mentioned , were actually canisters , that house the different strains of bacterias needed for water recycling . In each set of system , there's 2 canisters that carries the gram positive bacterias , nominant Nitrosomonas and Nitrobactar in the gram positive canisters , and gram negative bacteria in another to negate nitrate and reduce DOC . These canisters were from the Germans , but the technical aspect of controlling bacteria population can be another complicated issues . These recycling system , which I tried out , were expensive to install and run , and never feasible for a small pond , but would be approporiate for breeding or keeping in a bigger scale . Another canister houses the fe2 and fe3 , which is actually irons , to reduce the phosphate
    level in the water column and lastly the DOB .

    DOB - in short for Ditto Oxygenation Box , was a name I coined when I have this mysterious looking box that is powerful enough to increase water oxygenation level through combustion . Honestly , I do not have the slightlest idea how it was constructed or developed to enable cavitation to take place within such a small box in such a short span of time .Only through DO test , that I could determine that this DOB could be my replacement for Bakki shower . Dun think anyone can find the defination of Ditto Oxygenation Box anywhere , bcos there was never such a term or name .... though the Germans now refer this cavitation box as DOB now ..

    All these systems , were actually moved to Malaysia after a few months of installation , to my other fishery interest in North Malaysia , breeding of Discus , Stingrays and Arowanas . These systems were actually on trial at my place for not more than 6 months , and never a big part of my existing simple designs .

    Would 9 kois in my 27 tonne pond , grow better than 25 kois in the same pond ?? maybe ..

    David

  3. #53
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    Talk about blessings and faithfulness.....I see Mr. Soon's ponds for the first time yesterday on another forum only to see this is in full speed here allready. I am totaly taken back with Mr. Soon's efforts and ready to jump off a bridge and here he is posting for heaven's sake. Keep up the faith brothers.
    Now my thoughts on deep water. I look at it this way. I can exercise on a treadmill or I can walk 5 miles down the street. My body does not know the difference. If the max potential of oxygen and food is supplied to the koi with perfect water. If there is enough water movement to inspire some sort of swimming program, water depth is not major factor. It is only a buffer in case something goes wrong. Mr. Soon's system works fine but it has to be maintained perfectly. There is no room for error.

  4. #54
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoiCop View Post
    Four star post, my friend. Mind if I add your ramble to 'The Book?'
    Sure, but you'd be better off adding some of David's thoughts
    Some of what he's written (here and on the Malaysian Forum) is the proof in my pudding

  5. #55
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidSoon View Post
    Brother Larry ,

    You read me , and my ponds , like a book ......

    ...Key here , is Blessings and Faithfulness ....
    David
    I also read the prayer on your wall...
    Well spoken by a truly humble man.

  6. #56
    Jumbo DavidSoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingkong View Post
    Talk about blessings and faithfulness.....I see Mr. Soon's ponds for the first time yesterday on another forum only to see this is in full speed here allready. I am totaly taken back with Mr. Soon's efforts and ready to jump off a bridge and here he is posting for heaven's sake. Keep up the faith brothers.
    Now my thoughts on deep water. I look at it this way. I can exercise on a treadmill or I can walk 5 miles down the street. My body does not know the difference. If the max potential of oxygen and food is supplied to the koi with perfect water. If there is enough water movement to inspire some sort of swimming program, water depth is not major factor. It is only a buffer in case something goes wrong. Mr. Soon's system works fine but it has to be maintained perfectly. There is no room for error.
    Brother KK

    You hit the nail right on the butt !! , precisely why I would never advocate for shallow pond . Smaller volumn of water can be easily manageable , but one wrong order , the water physics can turn and change equally fast , some would be fast enough to eliminate the whole pond of fishes . Medications and drastic change in water parameters can equally be dangerous for smaller volumn of water , there's no leeway for errors , especially overstocked pond . It will take a while for a rotten egg to spread to a hundred , but it can be quite instant for a rotten egg to spread to the one next to it .

    My ponds were constructed for specific reasons . They're not viewing pond and do not add values to serenity , and main reason for such pond ... is to expedite growth .. and configuration of turnover , turbulence level , placement of bottom drains , skimmers and overflows , water returns , media , chambers , frequency of maintenence , Oxygenation Aids , chillers , shades and hi-blows , are all linked like a necklace of pearls . Snap the string , and the pearls will come falling off the necklace . It will take awhile to piece them back together again .. .. if you're lucky enough to find every pearls that dropped off .

    5-10pct water change daily is imperative for smaller ponds , as this will help keep the water within healthy range , and probably more water change when feeding or stocking increases . Though it's easier to incorporate water change for smaller pond than the bigger ones , and water change is imperative bcos it's much easier to fouled up a smaller pond than a bigger one .

    No matter how you weigh the pros and cons , smaller ponds will never be able to tip the scales .. Shallow pond can still work in our region , but never recommended over your end , unless sashimi menu is prepared ..
    or unless the pond is coiled with heat exchanger for winter or salinated to reduce freezing point , or barricade or shaded to prevent land and air predators lurking around your estate ..

    Trust me Brother KK , you can always sleeps better with a deeper and safer pond ..

    Blessed Sunday .

    David

  7. #57
    Oyagoi Lam Nguyen's Avatar
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    Brother David, I thank you so much for your response on this thread. This is exactly what I need to further enhance and solidify my knowledge on the subject of pond depth. I hope you have a Happy Sunday and continue to contribute to this forum.

  8. #58
    Sansai
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    Shallow Ponds and Jumbo Koi

    Great thread!

    Mr Soon presents us with a post grad exercise in what can be done, for which I gratefully thank him.

    I am in awe of what he has accomplished through seeing Paul's video, those are specimens that will be role models for me for a long time.

    The system is all and Mr Soon's pointing out that this is for growing out is to the heart of it all, this is a system that is far more then obvious that it does as intended.

    Now, lets see some similar successful threads on breeding , growing out fry and selection !

    As a postscript which should have been first I wholeheartedly agree on the Faithfulness and Blessings. All Blessings come from the Master of the Universe.
    Jake Levi
    Oswego, NY

    We are all in this together

  9. #59
    Oyagoi Lam Nguyen's Avatar
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    bumptidy bump.........

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