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Thread: Dang ol' mango

  1. #321
    Sansai
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    May 2005
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    Luke

    We understand that, we can all read.

    I guess what is lacking is the emotion you profess for animals you dont own, to be shown to the ones you actually do own, instead of the "oh well" that you stated you have for your koi.

    You see, some do care. And some do have that deep love for the fish in our charge.

    Your animals, your call. If it were mine, I would test two more, one from the pond, one from the tank.

    Ive said my piece,

    d

  2. #322
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by dOHd View Post
    Luke

    We understand that, we can all read.

    I guess what is lacking is the emotion you profess for animals you dont own, to be shown to the ones you actually do own, instead of the "oh well" that you stated you have for your koi.

    You see, some do care. And some do have that deep love for the fish in our charge.

    Your animals, your call. If it were mine, I would test two more, one from the pond, one from the tank.

    Ive said my piece,

    d
    OK then I'll get another test done..I'll take in several koi from each tank...and if the test is negative HenryC and MikeM and JoeW won't bat an eye when I bring fish to the show.
    The OVERALL opinion of the vat majority of INTELLIGENT hobbyists and BREEDERS is that I should eliminate the entire population NOW... You see they understand, they convinced ME. I was for NOT eliminating all my koi..So while YOU want to make it about ME. You need to convince practically EVERYBODY else... I didn't want to even kill them. It was the concensus from the information provided by the Department of Agriculture of Florida that the Koi ARE INFECTED. I tell ya what Convince Two of the three, MikeM, HenryC or Brett, that the State Department of Agriculture was wrong on BOTH tests and I'll keep the Koi and continue to show them.
    Deal?
    otherwise quit making your argument against me... you can't critically read... the overwhelming majority had to CONVINCE me to get rid of the entire population.

  3. #323
    Daihonmei
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    yesterday's casualty
    Eastern Nishikigoi GR Showa bought last july as a 4-5inchers
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dang ol' mango-mango-poi-khv-april-22-en-gr-showa.jpg  

  4. #324
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Luke, I have to say that I don't know what to say or recommend. The PCR test results are clear enough. That PCR tests have greater tendency to give false positives than serology tests also seems widely accepted. And, I understand that serology tests can give a false negative if the virus has not been active in the fish for sufficient time, or has gone into remission for an extended period. It doesn't seem that there is a perfect test for all occasions and all circumstances. The manner and timeline over which your fish have succumbed does not fit the notion of a mass die-off over a few days. But, the treatments you administered should have eliminated the common parasites, except maybe the hard-to-kill strain of trichodina that causes JR to recommend PP for trich. Folks have talked for some time about KHV becoming less virulent, and perhaps that explains your experience; or, maybe it is the size of your pond and in-flow of water resulting in the deaths being wider apart than in the closer confines of a typical-sized pond? (But, then, what about the mass die-offs that have occurred in wild carp populations in free-flowing rivers??) Altogether, a confusing situation.

    I think you have to accept the PCR tests as accurate until proved to the contrary. I would get a serology test performed, but if it came back negative I don't know what I would do. I think I would consider disposing humanely of all I did not particularly want to keep, and then get serology tests on each individual fish I did want to keep. Even if all the serology tests came back negative, I would have continuing doubts until I could figure out what else could have been the cause. If even one serology test came back positive, I would euthanize the whole population and sterilize the system. Then I hope I would get back up on the horse (albeit with inexpensive tosai at first), before an emotional breakdown caused me to convert the pond into a swimming pool. The hardest thing would be if I had to euthanize the old Hariwake that hatched out in my lily pond 15 years ago (or, could it really be 16 years, now? I lose track of time.). Whenever she saunters by, she reminds me of all the mistakes I made her endure and that, despite them, things get better in time.

  5. #325
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Karl Schoeler (I think) was doing some experimenting with various test methods a few years back and got false positives on serology as well. If I recall either the needle gauge (too small) or or blood draw technique (too fast) corrupted the sample by physically damaging the blood sample.

    Bottom line for me would be to use different testing methods and different labs if I was looking at putting down either a large number of Koi or a small but expensive collection. Too much of what we have to rely on is still less than completely reliable so cross checking only seems reasonable to me.

    Just my opinion.
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

  6. #326
    Daihonmei
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    Ok?
    So MikeM is NOT convinced.


    <Deleted and started a new thread: When is it OK to show Koi in relationship to them being tested or being exposed to KHV?.....like we don't know where THAT is gonna go>

  7. #327
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    I have experienced KHV close-up a couple of times - the difficult thing is the intensity varies. The dead fish sometimes look completely untouched without any signs of KHV - which for me is possibly the best indicator as koi dont die easily - your water volume is slowing the spread if it is KHV.I have seen 50 tosai in a potapool 90% wiped out in two weeks - in a 30000l pond in over a month 50% of fish are sometimes unaffected. Temp plays a role as does metabollic activity in spreading the disease faster. At some point no more will die and the disease will seamingly run its course. The remaining fish, although potentially "carriers", are generally unaffected, and will test negative for the virus. I have yet to be convinced that the virus can be carried through warmer tempretures without effecting other fish (this would nullify the effect of a quarantine facility) - although I know it is definately true for winter. These are my own personal observations but you need to test for KHV its the only way. I would also use a good viruscide like Virkon regularly at low dosage until your pond has been normalised - of course only if it is a bacteria/disease problem.

    almost a month from the first death..no fish have died in about a week and the Poster above seems to have described my event, even before it had ended.

    I am srill awaiting word on whther the fish can be utilized for research.
    they are acting and eating normally.
    Actually they are eating more than ever..and this is with the 25 that were removed before the show.

  8. #328
    Jumbo gregbickal's Avatar
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    Dang, sorry to hear about this Luke. I have been away from the boards for awhile, and just got word from a friend last night. Information travels slow in Iowa you know (were still using horse and buggy). I know what its like to lose alot of koi, and in my case it was preventable (winter kill). As they do with bandaides, rip it off fast, it will hurt alot at first, but the pain goes away quick. Kill and disinfect everything.

    If there's anything I can do, just let me know.

  9. #329
    Daihonmei
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    Hi Pickal!
    Ah to be in Iowa...and all those deer.

  10. #330
    Daihonmei
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    Gentle Koi reader
    Well past three months ago I proposed that I would be willing to hold the koi for up to one month so that KHV researchers could come and take the koi.
    I even offered to help THEM.
    Cindy found a researcher at Oregon State University that Spike was sure would get a grant from the KHV fund. And OSU needed koi that had survived a KHV exposure..well I got 80 of them.
    But I made it clear that I would only hold the koi for a minth unless I had a clear commitment for people other than myself to come pick them up within a month.
    Spike and I talked and he explained that the KHV Fund money was not released yet, but that he was sure it would be. MikeM and HenryC after being asked agreed to help bag the fish at that time.
    The AKCA Board Agreed to fund the research and then decided to review the decision. So I was in Limbo. I had contact with Veterinarian Ling Jin at OSU and was willing to continue to keep my backyard hostage by holding on to the koi until the AKCA ....I had committed to providing the Dosease exposed koi if I had help loading them to go to OSU.
    Several times throughout this debacle I stated I was not going to catch all the koi and bag them and drag them to an airport as it would be a logistical nightmare to do so by one person.
    Although Mickey Stonepainter lives 5.5 hours away he was more than willing and determined to help if he could adjust his work schedule. Mickey is living paycheck to paycheck right now but before the economy impacted him so heavily he was constantly going around the USA to befriend Koi People...
    Yesterday his truck (0ver 200,000 miles and it gets 9 miles to the gallon) made anoise when he turned the key and two puffs of smoke came out the vents...and the car was dead. So there is virtually no way he can help.
    And I am sorta glad about that...I am glad because so many people want.


    My phone number is 321 432 0518
    if you want to help the AKCA and the KHV Fund designated give me a call today August 4 2009.
    Tomorrow August 5, 2009 I will empty my ponds. If Someone steps up and comes and gets the koi fine..I will help all I can..just like my original offer..i have already gone way beyond any of the original parameters I was willing to do so the Koi could assist in the understanding of KHV.
    The hobby and its members have shown complete apathy and much worse by consistently asking more of me and requiring less of itself.

    I have done so much that i have not bothered to make public in an attempt to get these koi to the researchers that need them. the results will not help me..they will help the hobby. JR states that the hobby needs to better itself...the lack of anyone that reads this board and has known of the situation (of which there have been HUNDREDS of hobbyists from multiple boards) realizing KHV is their problem..the hobby's problem and not offering to help when it is clear that the fish I have are VALUABLE to the research. They are survivors of a KHV exposure. Survivors are needed to srudy how the virus behaves in fish that are carriers...
    i no longer give a rat's ass. I've done all I should have been asked to do and done alot more to boot.
    But that stopped this morning...
    I have suspended the enjoyment of the hobby within my backyard to keep a bunch of dead koi swimming for all of this Spring and Most of this Summer just so someone I have never met could study KHV.
    I also asked two close friends for some of their time and resources, which they gave and were willing to give more just so THE HOBBY ( THE HOBBY IS ALL of YOU that is reading this).
    So now I am fed up..I stated I would be willing to keep the fish for a MONTH if a researcher wanted the fish. i was hesitant to keep them any longer because I understand the patheticness of the human race and figured it would come to this... No one offering any help.
    So tomorrow (barring a florida koi club getting off its ass and showing up with a few jello molds and a cooler of beverages with nets hanging off the sides of their station wagons and horns honking as they pull onto the stree, I will be depleting the population of fish in lake luke and burying every damn one of them.
    Everything I ever said about any koi organization was minimized ...Koi Club are much worse than anything i have ever posted. They lack any leadership and think much higher of themselves..Not a one has seen the big picture..these koi are valuable to the understanding of KHV in its worst form...KHV CARRIERS. the AKCA has recognised the Researchers as having a worthwhile study as to the understanding TWICE. Twice they have reviewed the grant and chosen to supply the funds to the researcher because the Study is worth merit.
    BUT no person..no club, no leader, no club president or vice-president...or even down to the Members at large are insightful enough to offer the first little bit of help to get these koi to OSU.
    So Neither will I.

    And

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