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Thread: Why would the new head of the AKCA KHA program say this statement...

  1. #21
    Daihonmei
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    JR
    I have a wad of unmarked bills in small denominations. Obama is coming to get you... Wouldn't it be nice to have undetectable cab fare when they come?

  2. #22
    Guest Nancy M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mstrseed View Post
    To me this is a clear statement of the ill gotten funds that have been ear marked for the KHV program to be squandered on a program for professionals not hobbyist.

    All the people who have given in good faith monies that have now been diverted into a practice the money was not intended to do!!!

    It is clear that the KHA program has taken another path for somebody's hidden agenda...........I for one will not donate any more money towards a program that the AKCA has NO BUSINESS in putting forth. Not to mention misleading donors that 100% of their money goes to KHV Reasearch!!!!!

    Bill
    EXACTLY how Frank and I both feel. At the recent seminar there was an item up for auction that Frank and I both wanted. We did not bid on it, because we new that the money we donated to the KHV fund, would also be used for the DBHP, and I refuse to help support any dealer, improve his bussiness and QT protocal with my hard earned money.

  3. #23
    Guest Nancy M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike Cover View Post
    Here is what believe: The Essential Requirements that will be specified in the Koi Dealer Best Health Practices Certification Program (BHP) represent probably the best practical facility and operating procedures that are supported by the current scientific knowledge about KHV. Further, certification by a licensed veterinarian represents the best practical assurance that those facilities and procedures are in place and are kept up and followed.

    I recommend that hobbyists buy from dealers who implement and practice the BHPís Essential Requirements.

    So the nuance is that I recommend that hobbyists buy from dealers who practice the BHP requirements, not only those who are certified under the program. But, if you need or want independent, competent, third-party verification, Iím guessing youíll be looking for a BHP certificate displayed by the dealership.

    The Essential Requirements are anticipated to be posted on a future BHP web site for all to see. This is planned concurrently with the National Release of the BHP late in the second quarter of this year.

    Regards,
    Spike
    Spike,
    Are you saying that because a dealer followed your required protocal that it makes them a better dealer and safer place to buy fish from?

    Do you think that hobbiest and board members have quit buying fish from there favorite local dealer here, because they don't have that lil certificate hanging in there store?

    Curious since you plan on releasing your program in the second quarter how many dealers are lined up and waiting to get certified? How many of the local southern California dealers are on your list? I would think that your waiting list would have to be very extensive for the Socal dealers, since this is the home of the AKCA, and we have more local dealers within our area then any place across the United states.

  4. #24
    Jumbo
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    Oh, Nancy, I think you are being too rough on the transport paper. It is a research paper by multiple authors, not an article for casual reading and not a publication of AKCA. There is some interesting info in it. I found the testing of the slime coat for stress indicators informative. It may simply confirm that koi are easily stressed by netting, but gives deeper insight on just how stressful it is and the impact on body functions. The emphasis on Ultimate does undercut the credibility somewhat, but it is made clear that this one product is the only one used in testing. Use of a generic term describing an ammonia binder with certain characteristics would have been better for maintaining an independent tone. But, full disclosure is made.

    Overall, it is the most thorough piece I have seen on transporting koi. For those wanting to study on the subject, it is a good start point with a fairly good bibliography of science-based articles for further inquiry. The recommendations in general are undoubtedly good ones, albeit not always practical. For example, placing koi to be transported to a show in a separate holding tank for about a week in advance is probably more appropriately targeted to commercial shippers and not something many hobbyists are likely to do. However, that does not mean it is not a good idea. Similarly, it is surely wise to use 3 rubberbands on each of the 3 bags of a triple-bagged koi to be really safe, although not many folks are going to use 9 rubberbands. Still, if that recommendation gets more folks to always use 2 rubberbands on a bag, it will save some fish.

    There are a couple of the recommendations that I find bothersome and would expect to generate debate. Cooling transport water to 45F, for example, may be theoretically perfect, but in practice I do not think it such a good idea for folks to attempt it. [As for my koi, in the past 6 years the lowest temp reached in my pond is 54F. I would never purposefully expose my koi to temps lower than they've ever known in order to transport them.] Salting the transport bag water to 0.3% is something I also would not do. In any event, I cannot visualize how one adheres to the recommendations that the koi be bagged directly from the floating tub in which the netted koi is placed, that the water in the transport bag be salted to 0.3% before the koi is placed in it, and that it is best that the transport water be freshly prepared. I hardly ever transport my koi, so I'm something of a fumbler as is. I think I'd cause more stress than I'd be relieving.

    In sum, I found it a thought-provoking research paper. I would not want a show newbie to read it prior to their first show. It might scare them off. An article highlighting key points discussed in the paper could be useful, although dealing with the debateable ones might be challenging.


    Regardless of the paper seeming to be a research paper how can this not be considered part of the AKCA publication since it is on a subsidiary site of the AKCA for all the public to read and view? It is written by KHAs certified by an AKCA program. Plus clearly in large letters it states that the paper was done for the KHA program. Isnít the KHA program a program of the AKCA?

    I know that KOI USA also uses disclaimers from subjectmatter within articles written by private hobbyists (verses AKCA certified KHAs). KOI USA also uses a peer review process and kind of a "no blood, no foul" approach to allowable and not allowable content. Was this paper "Peer reviewed" by knowledgeable hobbyists experienced in transporting koi and if so, by who?

  5. #25
    Oyagoi gspotmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nancy M. View Post
    Spike,
    Are you saying that because a dealer followed your required protocal that it makes them a better dealer and safer place to buy fish from?

    Do you think that hobbiest and board members have quit buying fish from there favorite local dealer here, because they don't have that lil certificate hanging in there store?

    Curious since you plan on releasing your program in the second quarter how many dealers are lined up and waiting to get certified? How many of the local southern California dealers are on your list? I would think that your waiting list would have to be very extensive for the Socal dealers, since this is the home of the AKCA, and we have more local dealers within our area then any place across the United states.
    Nancy,
    They should not forget the backyard dealers as well. Do they nneed certification as well.?

  6. #26
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    I think what she should have said was that ever hobbyist should QT a fish regardless of who the dealer is or what the dealer is certified under.


    I wish dealers would guaranteed their fish they sell, but that would never be the case.

    I like this line from a movie;
    Ted - But why do they put a guarantee on the box then?

    Tommy - 'Cause they know all they sold you was a guaranteed piece of shiyt.

    Tommy - That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it "guaranteed", i will. I got spare time.

    Tommy - But for now, for your customers' sake,
    for your daughter's sake you might wanna think about
    buying a quality product from me.

    Ted - Okay, i'll buy from you.

    I say buy from a dealer you are comfortable with.

    Just early morning BS'ing, before the start of the day....

    Tony
    The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

  7. #27
    Guest Nancy M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campcheryl View Post
    Regardless of the paper seeming to be a research paper how can this not be considered part of the AKCA publication since it is on a subsidiary site of the AKCA for all the public to read and view? It is written by KHAs certified by an AKCA program. Plus clearly in large letters it states that the paper was done for the KHA program. Isn’t the KHA program a program of the AKCA?

    I know that KOI USA also uses disclaimers from subjectmatter within articles written by private hobbyists (verses AKCA certified KHAs). KOI USA also uses a peer review process and kind of a "no blood, no foul" approach to allowable and not allowable content. Was this paper "Peer reviewed" by knowledgeable hobbyists experienced in transporting koi and if so, by who?
    Cheryl, this is the disclaimer, on the first page of the paper.


    The authors did not have unlimited time and money. One product was tested and it worked. Therefore, there was only data to back up the recommendation for that one product, ULTIMATE®. This does not in any way mean that the group endorses ULTIMATE® as a preference over other identical products. It just means that those other products were not tested and therefore there was no data to compare. A further discussion of ULTIMATE® may be found in the Appendix.
    The AKCA Board of Directors has requested that this disclaimer be added to apprised readers that the entire Board was not given the opportunity to review and comment on this report and/or summary and therefore neither is endorsed by the AKCA.

    Does this mean that the AKCA board, will be in fact reading this entire paper, and then will endorse it at some point?

    Looking at the current board members of the AKCA, I would say that I know for sure that 6 of them show fish, I wonder how many of the six would or have followed this papers protocal for transporting thier koi.

    Steve, I have a question for you as the Koi USA editor, will this paper be included in any upcoming issues of Koi USA, and if so will Koi USA also list a disclaimer of its contents? Has it even been submitted as an article?

  8. #28
    Daihonmei
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    did ULTIMATE provide funds or product for the "research?"

  9. #29
    Guest Nancy M.'s Avatar
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    I have heard from several sources, that when this paper first started there were several others on board. But when ego's took over many dropped out.

    Funny thing is, since project KHV & the KHA program started I have seen many people work there butts off to promote, and work on donations, fund raisers etc... Those people that were part of the inception of these projects are no were to be seen anymore? why is that several KHA's have resigned, and several volunteers in the KHV project have also left ever so quietly?

  10. #30
    MCA
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    Honmei MCA's Avatar
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    Nancy,

    To have an even longer view on this consider how it started. My DW and Beth Grunden attended a koi health seminar at UGA in the winter of 2004. Beth and DW thought it was a good idea to build up interest and a war chest around fighting KHV. They got things going...then AKCA stepped in, took over, dismissed Beth and DW.....and the rest is history.

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