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Thread: KHV oh MY!

  1. #11
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    In theory, it might be a good idea but if I had a very expensive fish or even a very prized cheap fish, NO Vet would touch it unless I knew and trusted that Vet.

    Ray, I have to agree with you!

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke frisbee View Post
    the reason i suggested it is because there is no baseline for what koi have khv and what koi do not....
    A baseline for khv within the hobbys population has not been established..it is non-sensical to believe all fish that have not had a known exposure to KHV are "khv free" and all those thta have been exposed to KHV are "KHV carriers".


    and as to testing vendor tanks..that is absolutely brilliant.
    think about it..not you Steve, too late for you to start.
    if koi shows did KHV testing from the tanks of vendors at the show then vendors would either be dang sure to not bring "possible KHV carrying fish to the show, or they would be quickly identified and perhaps not sell fish any longer.
    as it is now a hobbyist buys fish and no matter what they do the fish could still get into their main pond undetected before it sheds the virus and at that point the Show committee and the vendor can both point to the "Heron" as the culprit.
    What would happen is people would be more likely to buy fish at a show and be sure that they were safe. they could take them home and do the proper quarantine and wait on the testing reports of the show's vendors to aid them in determinng the KHV status of their purchases.


    Another one of those things that looks good on paper but in reality will not really work. There is no test that is 100% guaranteed and to do a blood sereology takes about 1 to 2 weeks for the testing to be complete. PCR is only good if the fish is in full outbreak and as Aquitori states would be a fool or really stupid person to bring to a show, vendor or hobbyist. Now maybe the dealer has kept his fish at temps below permissive temps, KHV will not propogate so therefore the virus will not break. The PCR test will be useless and a fish is killed for a test rendered useless. Even worse, you go ahead and submit a PCR and it comes back negative and it is a false negative because the fish was at below permissible temps. Once fish hit permissive temps the virus CAN and most likely will break. Now scenario 2, the vendor has 2 year old and older fish only, there is no test to show antibody titers to indicate the fish may have been exposed because their immune system has fought back the outbreak past a year maybe 15 months. That fish is now a carrier and you may never know until one day it decides to break.

    Again, a hobbyist should QT any new fish and test. QT the new fish to permissible temps and test. A carrier fish is extremely hard to detect and you can raise and lower the temp till the cows come home and it will not cause the virus to break on a fish that has survived an outbreak. That is just one of the things that is being researched at this time along with many other things related to KHV.

  3. #13
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    Thanks for the details, Cheryl. I couldn't remember the time frames.

  4. #14
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    (edited post from above) I just received a email bringing me up to date on Luke determining that his koi were dying of KHV. I have been at a koi event for the past 4 days and did not know about this.

    Luke, I am truly sorry about your situation.

    KHV is a terrible disease and it seems that the initial death rate is getting lower dropping from 90%+ to 60% or even less - but, that is not good as the survivors are never to be trusted as anything but likely carriers. A year or two later another outbreak will likely occur.[/quote]

  5. #15
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    What about this idea?

    Since most of the top breeders/dealers or at least the conscientious and responsible ones DO test their fish periodically, why not make it a requirement that they show proof of that testing to sell or show their fish at a show? Not a 100% guarantee but it's a step in the right direction on their part that they are doing the right thing with the limited information we now have.

    There has to be some kind of unbiased regulatory board that can be set up to oversee the fish that come into a show. Maybe have a team of Vet's that work with koi oversee it.

    Instead of going on like we are, why not put our collective heads together and come up with a solution to the problem.
    The views expressed above are my own personal views and, as such, do not necessarily reflect the views of the AKCA or the KHA program.
    SANDY

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by kntry View Post
    What about this idea?

    Since most of the top breeders/dealers or at least the conscientious and responsible ones DO test their fish periodically, why not make it a requirement that they show proof of that testing to sell or show their fish at a show? Not a 100% guarantee but it's a step in the right direction on their part that they are doing the right thing with the limited information we now have.

    There has to be some kind of unbiased regulatory board that can be set up to oversee the fish that come into a show. Maybe have a team of Vet's that work with koi oversee it.

    Instead of going on like we are, why not put our collective heads together and come up with a solution to the problem.
    Well the dealer could do that as a marketing aspect but then again that is not a guarantee that the fish is KHV free and if a hobbyist buys a fish and does not QT or test themselves then boom an outbreak....then what?

    Everyone from breeder to dealer to hobbyist must do their part. It should be a habit not a reaction.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke frisbee View Post
    the reason i suggested it is because there is no baseline for what koi have khv and what koi do not....
    A baseline for khv within the hobbys population has not been established..it is non-sensical to believe all fish that have not had a known exposure to KHV are "khv free" and all those thta have been exposed to KHV are "KHV carriers".


    and as to testing vendor tanks..that is absolutely brilliant.
    think about it..not you Steve, too late for you to start.
    if koi shows did KHV testing from the tanks of vendors at the show then vendors would either be dang sure to not bring "possible KHV carrying fish to the show, or they would be quickly identified and perhaps not sell fish any longer.
    as it is now a hobbyist buys fish and no matter what they do the fish could still get into their main pond undetected before it sheds the virus and at that point the Show committee and the vendor can both point to the "Heron" as the culprit.
    What would happen is people would be more likely to buy fish at a show and be sure that they were safe. they could take them home and do the proper quarantine and wait on the testing reports of the show's vendors to aid them in determinng the KHV status of their purchases.

    Well I have seen several times where 3 people have drawn blood on 12 koi and the start to finsh took almost 2 hours. Can you imagine the time it would take a dealer to do 150 fish at a show? The dealers needs to do what they can but it still is up to the hobbyist to protect themselves. Qt at permissible temps and test yourself. Again, make it a habit not a reaction.

  8. #18
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    Honmei MCA's Avatar
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    We can not want or expect anyone or organization to come between the buyer and seller.

    Clubs or other organizations do not get involved at koi sales at a dealer's premises; no reason to try to do so. There is no reason to change that at a show or other koi event.

    The tranaction has always been, is now, and should remain between the two parties exchanging money and goods.

  9. #19
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    The responsibility has to lie with both the seller and purchaser. Why should KHV money be used to help dealers get certified and use it as a selling tool? Woulldn't it be better to put that money back into the KHV research fund and let the dealers be responsible for showing that they have already done the right thing by periodically testing and keeping up with the known protocols?

    I'm not saying that the program isn't a good idea, I just have issues with the management of the entire situation.

    Did anyone ever get a list of who has been certified by the BHP?

  10. #20
    Oyagoi mstrseed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kntry View Post

    Did anyone ever get a list of who has been certified by the BHP?
    I heard there were 4 (four) dealers/outlets that have completed the program................

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