KHV deaths.... seller in denial

[PapaBear]

Well that does clear several things up for us.
#1 The tests were on individual Koi rather than nested.
#2 We know the credentials of Dr. Goodwin to be about as good as they get.

What remains unclear is your personal quarantine practice, and that is essential. You should NOT take this as an accusation against you as QT protocols demand exacting isolation of all new Koi if sourcing is to be determined with certainty.

Please describe your quarantine practice step by step, proximity to your other fish, and the use of all water and fish handling equipment (nets, filters, hoses, tubs, etc...) The potential for cross-contamination must be accurately documented before naming names.

The dealers defensive attitude and explanations/excuses give little comfort to say the least.

[kntry]

Larry, I agree that their individual QT practice would come into play with the health of their existing pond but from the documented dates and what happened, it’s clear the fish came into the QT diseased.

Even if the QT fish were cross contaminated from their fish and they had KHV, the extent of external damage and death couldn’t have happened that fast.



I'm really sorry you're going through this.

[sav3406]

you know, my water smelled horrible too. Hence...wanting to throw up

[Enchanted Koi]

Qt:
600 gal. above ground pond.... strictly QT....
all equipment individual to that QT. Bleach at station and used faithfully.

( I was in nursing for years before I hurt my back, and I Incorporated my knowledge of OSHA regs for humans into my Koi love.....)

Inside QT set up after continued death, so as to observe rate of death and symptoms associated.
individual tanks 40 gal.

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by kntry Larry, I agree that their individual QT practice would come into play with the health of their existing pond but from the documented dates and what happened, it’s clear the fish came into the QT diseased. Even if the QT fish were cross contaminated from their fish and they had KHV, the extent of external damage and death couldn’t have happened that fast. I'm really sorry you're going through this.

Obviously I agree as to the the near 100% certainty of that, but accuracy at every step along the way including any potential for cross-contamination is very important. Maintaining the complete integrity of the process of elimination is something that can't be compromised on if we are going to promote high standards of accountability at every level from breeder all the way to hobbyist.
Lowering standards of proof at any point along the way makes it all open to speculation which is NOT the direction any of us want to take.

[kntry]

I totally agree as far as proof for their case but I just wanted to point out that the disease couldn’t have spread that fast even if there was cross contamination.

[Enchanted Koi]

I can only assume due to my nursing background that I have been a bit OCD in my need to observe and document regularly.

not only in my personal records but also through e mail notifications to the seller. And yet he states KHV Dx is generic to all unexplained death.

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by Enchanted Koi Qt: 600 gal. above ground pond.... strictly QT.... all equipment individual to that QT. Bleach at station and used faithfully. ( I was in nursing for years before I hurt my back, and I Incorporated my knowledge of OSHA regs for humans into my Koi love.....) Inside QT set up after continued death, so as to observe rate of death and symptoms associated. individual tanks 40 gal.

Excellent.
What is the proximity of the outdoor QT to the pond?
Was the QT covered?
What was in the QT prior to the new fish arriving?
All important information to build your case on a rock solid foundation.

[Enchanted Koi]

QT above ground approx 50-75 feet from stock

Qt covered yes

Qt brand new, nothing had ever been in there before as we had never purchased shipments of this size before.

[luke frisbee]

Edit: I wrote the rest of this post while Kntry was posting hers. So at least one person can think..a little.

Dear Disenchanted Koi,
As you can clearly read the "vocal leaders" in the koi hobby are protectors of the PROVIDERS of the objects of their desire .
You are sure of who delivered the koi to you. BUT Don't expect the "Hobby" as a whole to do anything but point at YOU as the reason YOU have KHV-infected koi. YOU are the PROBLEM. That is clear...and if not you, the "Hobby" will blame anything else they can find...including bird feces, birds dropping infected fish into your pond without you becoming aware, a prior carrier fish that YOU correctly quarantined, But if that is not enough the "Hobby" will continue to Deny it is a Koi Seller that is to blame. Professional Testing Sites (Organization run by Professionals that are responsible for identifying sick animals from well ones, and thereby gatekeepers for the health of our Society)...yet they do not look at the Koi Providers with the same jaundiced eye that they look at the Labs that are responsible for maintianing the health of the people of the USA..In the "Hobby's eye" a Koi Provider has NO real responsiblity to society to determine the health condition of an animal in relation to the responsibility that all these testing facilities must do...And the reason for that is that the "Hobby" is a hotbed of twisted facts and half-truths...and the "Hobby's" leading Organizations (AKCA and ZNA) refuse to put the task of selling koi without KHV on the Providers of the Koi. Displayed throughout this thread you can clearly see the slant of all the hobbyists is to point to you as the Problem...if not you, then Certified and Acreditted labs that have at their very core the protection of Our Society from outbreaks of disease and deaths in humans are seen as being unreliable...Yet the Deliverer of your koi is considered to have impeccable character and be above reproach for selling KHV-infected koi.
But please, Don't be too harsh on the "Hobby's leaders". They are lead around by their noses and ponds by the PROVIDERS OF KOI". The "Leaders" have become entrenched and brain-washed by the Providers... a sad state of affairs for all...EVERYTHING the "leaders" in the hobby "learn" they "learn" from the PROVIDERS OF KOI.
Did you think the "LEADERS of koi" (which are actually in truth "THE FOLLOWERS OF THE PROVIDERS OF KOI," and NOT Leaders at all but a brain-washed conduit between the PROVIDERS and the rest of the buyers of koi).
The "Leaders" within the hobby acquire the best koi from the Koi Providers, and raise them according to what the PROVIDERS have told them to do, and value them based on what the PROVIDERS have told them is "VALUABLE."
So please understand as I understand....You will get NO free-thought from the Group that represents the hobby. They have been indoctrinated and are mentally damaged from kowtowing to the PROVIDERS of Koi.
Some of what "they" say about KHV is true...but much is non-sensical, and the PROVIDERS have wrapped a vast amount of disinformation in a very thin gauze of "fact." A bird didn't crap that disease into your pond..your QT was better than it should have needed to be...yet the Wagging Mouths in the Hobby have once again pretended they were capable of thought when infact they are ingrained in the teachings of the PROVIDERS.

Here, I'll show you a couple of facts that ALL the Wagging tongues have failed to address because IF they did then all the talk about YOU being the Problem would have NEVER been Boright up....

You stated a KOI was DOA. YOU clearly STATED the water smelled horrible that the koi were delivered in...you clearly show that AS SOON AS THE KOI WERE RECIEVED THEY WERE IN AN ADVANCED STATE OF THE INFECTION'S LIFE CYCLE through the timeline and behaviors of the koi's deaths... D*MN the list is so long about the FACT that the KHV in your delivered fish Population had been established long BEFORE the Koi were even packed to be delivered to you.
It is clear as the notched nose on A khv-infected koi's face (more on that later probably), But not a single poster pointed out that this KHV Outbreak was not caused by you and that the PROVIDER is 100% responsible.
ONE HUNDRED FRIGGIN PERCENT RESPONSIBILTY FOR THIS OUTBREAK RESTS CLEARLY ON THE PROVIDER. No one with any intelligence (so please do not think for a minnute that most of the koi hobbyists that can type will not chime in about how the disease is and has been your fault) can draw a line to anything you ( or a diahreatic bird, or a lab that the USA relies on to keep its food source safe) did.
You are wrong in believing that there was a carrier in the shipment of koi you recieved. KHV takes a couple of weeks to progress as far as it did in the group of koi you recieved. (Here again note that everyone of the people that have posted have not acknowledged that the disease did NOT come from you or one koi thta was shipped to you. THE Breakout started long before they were shipped. The people that have posted here are conditioned by the PROVIDERS to always blame the Hobbyist who has an outbreak and NEVER reason how the PROVIDERS should be held accountable.)

Now having said that I will venture one point that the group has not brought up, except with what Brutucsz (who is somewhat of a "Provider"), yet doe support the "Mentality" of the Leaders in the hobby....
Since the fish sent to you were at such an advanced state of infection, What is happening back at the source of those fish? I would think that your situation is not an isolated one. Perhaps Brutcsz is playing the game that the hobby fully supports...A hobby corrupted by, lazy, weak-minded, self-centered, and unethically-centered individuals who would search for blame in the Non-professional segment of the hobby by placing KHV outbreaks on the Hobbyists instead of those that are making a living selling fish, diseased or not. There is no other hobby or animal that is sold that allows for the animals to be diseased and not hold the Professional selling the diseased animals to not be found out and held accountable...and thta speaks as plainly as it can...the Koi Providers control the "Leaders" in the hobby (Both the AKCA and the ZNA, Heck I'll even throw the Infantile WWKC).
Any sane, intelligent, rational person that hears what happens when KHV-infected koi are sold to a hobbyist clearly understands that the SOURCE/PROVIDERS should be identified and held accountable...yet "our" hobby always blames...birds, carriers already in the pond, Unethical labs, poor Quarantine practices...etc etc.