KHV deaths.... seller in denial

[Enchanted Koi]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brutuscz Without naming names....Is this dealer in Massachusetts? If so...I have a good idea who it is. Sorry about the trouble your having, just awful.

No but I did contact a seller in Mass.... (maybe the same one you are thinking of).... he actually is the one who encouraged me to test and pointed me in the right direction....
He's been GREAT help.

[Enchanted Koi]

[QUOTE=luke frisbee;138109]Edit:
What is happening back at the source of those fish? QUOTE]


According to the supplier "there exists no problem at his facility. No death, No sickness"...( but in the same sentence as he relayed to me he had to inject some new arrivals for hole in the dorsal)... he called a simple bacteria easily cured..... (I have that in an e mail from him) this is why we thought maybe a carrier had an outbreak from the stress of shipping....

[Brutuscz]

If they were helpful....not the same seller in Mass. The one I knew was getting koi from china, US, vietnam and japan. Claiming to quarantine...but, when I went, no quarantine facility. Plus...tried to sell me koi that just came in that day from overseas!!! He was resposible for more koi deaths than the grimm reaper!!! I hope that dealer has changed his ways...but, I wouldn't count on it. This was many years ago though.

Luke...any sane, intelligent person, who has been in this hobby as long as you...and who frequents the boards as often as you...KNOWS to quarantine. No exceptions to this rule. Stop trying to blame dealers...it was just as much your fault as theirs. They didn't want khv any more than you did!!! You wanted to dance with the devil and just throw new koi into your pond. No sympathy from me at all!!!

[PapaBear]

Your Nursing background OCD is not a problem. If anything it has helped you to do everything possible to maintain a biosecure environment for both your new acquisitions and your existing Koi/Pond. It would have taken something beyond weird for this scenario to be a result of anything BUT the new shipment.

The one suggestion I would make before naming any names would be to photograph EVERYTHING (Pond, QT (indoor and out), equipment, sterilizing equipment, etc...) Post it all up here so you have bullet proof evidence to back up everything you've said and done. Public accusations open up personal liability issues and you don't want to leave any openings.

Luke thinks there is a world wide "conspiracy" to cover up this sort of thing to protect breeders and dealers who knowingly sell diseased fish.

What is actually true is that very few people who go through this have followed the steps you have taken which leaves an abundance of holes in the chain of events, and those holes generally leave multiple potential sources that are rendered untraceable.
You are the exception, and being exceptional in this case is a very, VERY good thing.

If Luke had followed your procedures he would not have killed more Koi in a matter of weeks than most will own in a lifetime in the hobby. In case you can't tell from the tone of his post he's still kind of bitter about that fact.

[luke frisbee]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brutuscz If they were helpful....not the same seller in Mass. The one I knew was getting koi from china, US, vietnam and japan. Claiming to quarantine...but, when I went, no quarantine facility. Plus...tried to sell me koi that just came in that day from overseas!!! He was resposible for more koi deaths than the grimm reaper!!! I hope that dealer has changed his ways...but, I wouldn't count on it. This was many years ago though. Luke...any sane, intelligent person, who has been in this hobby as long as you...and who frequents the boards as often as you...KNOWS to quarantine. No exceptions to this rule. Stop trying to blame dealers...it was just as much your fault as theirs. They didn't want khv any more than you did!!! You wanted to dance with the devil and just throw new koi into your pond. No sympathy from me at all!!!

Brutuzsc
it is completely about the DEALER in THIS case...yet the "hobby" still dwells on the shortcomings of THIS Hobbyist...as to mine I am to share blame...and I fully have so what you have posted I agree with..yet is the Provider of KHV infected koi ever sought? Is any attempt made to remove the source?
No and NO.
And No where else in the world is the selling of animals with a known lethal disease accepted, and the PROVIDER is never identified.

[Eugeneg]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee Brutuzsc it is completely about the DEALER in THIS case...yet the "hobby" still dwells on the shortcomings of THIS Hobbyist...as to mine I am to share blame...and I fully have so what you have posted I agree with..yet is the Provider of KHV infected koi ever sought? Is any attempt made to remove the source? No and NO. And No where else in the world is the selling of animals with a known lethal disease accepted, and the PROVIDER is never identified.

Luke
Good points . The problem as I see it is that a lot of pet stores and garden
centres that sell fish have not even heard of KHV ,another is that in the colder climates might not even be detected. If testing had to be done or inspections and regulation we could then end up with a problem where we could not even be allowed to move fish.
Right now I would urge everyone to quarantine new fish with the last two days adding one fish from your own pond. Regardles where the fish came from.
Regards
Eugene

[schildkoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee Brutuzsc it is completely about the DEALER in THIS case...yet the "hobby" still dwells on the shortcomings of THIS Hobbyist...as to mine I am to share blame...and I fully have so what you have posted I agree with..yet is the Provider of KHV infected koi ever sought? Is any attempt made to remove the source? No and NO. And No where else in the world is the selling of animals with a known lethal disease accepted, and the PROVIDER is never identified.

Luke, the problem is that in most cases, including yours, there was not a dealer who KNEW that they were selling infected koi and you did not take the proper steps necessary to isolate the source. So, your statement and logic is off balance again.

Steve

[JasPR]

Hi enchanted, well that is a history that now matches the testing results. I'm afraid you are right, looks like KHV. I know Goodwin by the way and he is a very accomplished researcher working with KHV since the beginning, so I'd have some more confidence in that test than some other labs.
Best of luck to you and try not to be too discouraged. JR

[Brutuscz]

The problem with naming names is it is difficult to be 100% sure. Herpes viruses can stay latent for long periods of time...in humans and fish. So, it is hard to prove if it was from a new addition or was already in a pond...waiting for the proper trigger. Such as temperatures or stress. Do you really want to wipe out someones livelihood on a hunch??

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brutuscz The problem with naming names is it is difficult to be 100% sure. Herpes viruses can stay latent for long periods of time...in humans and fish. So, it is hard to prove if it was from a new addition or was already in a pond...waiting for the proper trigger. Such as temperatures or stress. Do you really want to wipe out someones livelihood on a hunch??

Go back and read again Bob.
1 dead fish straight from the bag.
All dead/sick fish in QT the entire time before any opportunity for introducing any Canary Koi from the existing population.
Separate water, filtration, equipment, etc... and a covered and completely isolated QT from the main pond, in the hands of a trained medical professional with sterilizing station for QT gear.
I'm betting these QT protocols are comparable to the better dealers in the country and far better than most.
3 Separate lab tests, detailed results, from one of the premier KHV researchers in the country.
Need More???