KHV deaths.... seller in denial

[Watercolors]

MSTRSEED: Enchanted and I just got off the phone with a huge controversy: Is the beautiful koi beneath your identity a graphics or an actual koi? I cannot believe there can be so perfectly marked a koi in existence, or am I wrong?

Thank you for your input. My son is a designer who is now contacting friends including a contractor and an architect who has designed Zen gardens in Japan. This has been a learning process for Enchanted and myself. I am taking this opportunity to bring in a dozer and level the entire premises and start anew. My son and friends are designing a Zen theme garden and incorporating my input for future koi needs. I'm also taking this opportunity to change the direction relevant to the varieties of Koi I'll raise when I restock. Fortunately, I have some offspring off premises that have not been sold that will provide the opportunity for Enchanted and I to continue our separate lines. This will be a long rebuilding process.

After touring the Virginia Tech laboratory facilities, I was educated on how they quarantine and how new ponds can be set-up with the correct, yet economical plumbing. My system was OK, but these are tremendous and will be so much better in providing and maintaining the proper environment for koi. Thank God I can use Dr. Smith's knowledge and expertise when rebuilding my "farm."

I think I'm going to incorporate a "bleach shower" that I have to go through before entering the quarantine area next time! Or, perhaps a 20' long walkway of shallow bleachwater prior to entry! I have to get over blaming myself and get at the person who was the cause of this disaster!! At least I'm coming out of depression and can halfway joke about what to incorporate into this new design. That is better than the panic-stricken, short-tempered, half-crazed emotional roller-coaster I've been riding for over a week now !

Again, thank you so much for the encouragement.

~Watercolors --

[Enchanted Koi]

I know there is further questions, Watercolors and I are in separate locations in very close proximity. I spent 6 Days and nights at her location through this situation. I documented everything as has she. please refer to post #8 & 10.
euthanizing the entire stock was under recommendation and our own decision to be as responsible as possible.
we both did all we could to ensure proper handling, and we both have suffered the loss of our stock minus a few at my location, this loss mostly due to our personal decisions to completely eliminate everything on the property and start again..... it is far better to be on the safe side than to face chaos later due to ignorance.

[mstrseed]

Quote: Originally Posted by Watercolors MSTRSEED: Enchanted and I just got off the phone with a huge controversy: Is the beautiful koi beneath your identity a graphics or an actual koi? I cannot believe there can be so perfectly marked a koi in existence, or am I wrong? ~Watercolors --

I'm sure it's a graphic rendition of the elusive "perfect" Tancho Showa......

Someday....................

[luke frisbee]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi [/B] Luke, the problem is that in most cases, including yours, there was not a dealer who KNEW that they were selling infected koi and you did not take the proper steps necessary to isolate the source. So, your statement and logic is off balance again. Steve

yes Childers, But in EVERY case the Figureheads of the hobby point to the Hobbyist and never attempt to ferret out the REAL cause of KHV...and you know what about logic?
The logic in this case is that there can only be ONE source for the KHV, and it was NOTHING that the DisEnchanted Koi Did. The presence of the disease is completely and unequivocably placed with the PROVIDER of those fish...THAT IS FACT, no logic required. But is the Hobby willing to pursue where the PROVIDER got the KHV koi? No. Did it even cross the minds of the figutreheads to put some effort in eleiminating the SOURCE of KHV? NO.
and why?...because the Providers have brainwashed the Top Gorup of hobbyists into focusing on what the Hobbyist is doing wrong..But the Disease is PROVIDER based and spread. And the providers do not want the Hobby to recognise that simple fact.

[luke frisbee]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi [/B] Luke, the problem is that in most cases, including yours, there was not a dealer who KNEW that they were selling infected koi and you did not take the proper steps necessary to isolate the source. So, your statement and logic is off balance again. Steve

ignorance is not a defense...except in your case.

[luke frisbee]

Quote: Originally Posted by Enchanted Koi I'm unsure if this seller even could comprehend that the KHV was at his facility. He appears completely in denial of the possibility. what is the sad scenario to this is AFTER we received the tests confirming KHV he refuses to even consider QT ing himself and test on his own. He continues to sell, without a thought of the possibility of infecting others. He sees me as armature bc I've only been in this hobby for 7 years and my friend "watercolors" about 25 years... "we know nothing and we did this". However I disagree completely. I guess he thinks we could mutate this KHV and introduce it ourselves, and somehow have his Koi affected beyond normal progression to begin dying immediately upon arrival with consistent intervals of death with serious symptoms.... Watercolors (my friend) is devastated over this loss, we now have to begin again. not bc of our shortcomings but bc this seller refuses to be responsible and test his Koi even after he was notified of his Koi testing positive, after a massive death rate...... sad!!!!!

yes Childers. This Provider does not know he has KHV..he still doesn't know...by your logic he should be allowed to continue selling koi....as long as he does nothing to try and determine if his fish are KHV-free he is OK to sell in your book...the less Providers know the less they are held accountabble is what your logic is proposing....the real logic would be, A Provider must KNOW if he is selling KHV-free koi.

[PapaBear]

Luke, you are contributing nothing of value while acting as a huge distraction. Nobody is trying to see anything get covered up, but your incessant ranting is clouding the issues at hand. It would be wonderful if you could shut up and listen long enough to let the people actually dealing with this problem to sort it all out.
We have two people who are actually able to DOCUMENT facts for all to see, and that will lead everyone to the truth of the matter. That is why the rest of us are here.

[Brutuscz]

Oh Man...luke on his soap box again Dude...quarantine or shut up!! I mean, really...give it a rest. If you quarantined and got it..I would feel bad and at least say you tried. You knowingly did the stupidest possible thing you could do in this hobby and now your the spokesman for khv?? Look in the mirror...point at the guy looking back at you, and that's where the blame lies!!!

[Watercolors]

I'm pulled in about three different directions regarding this matter.

1) I am over-cautious about mentioning the name of this seller. I realize that in doing so would potentially ruin a small business - especially in these hard economic times.

2) At my persistence upon forwarding copies of the findings of Dr. Goodwin and Dr. Smith, the seller did in fact refund all monies (including shipping) into my Paypal account today. The seller still denies there exists a problem at their facility - all fish are happy, eating like horses, etc. The seller also refuses to admit that KHV infected fish were sold to me. From the beginning, I've stated that if there does exist a problem to just tell me, be honest and help me, then we can work things out. I'm searching for a wholesaler from which I could purchase good koi at economical prices for resale. People in our area will not pay high $$, but I would be a repeat buyer. Seller still in denial. Dr. Smith at VA Tech says that if he's not experiencing fatalities at his facility, that he has a ticking time-bomb in place that will blow up and he'll lose everything he has, even his upper end koi! (I know, I'm horrible and do feel sorry for the fate of the poor koi as it's a horrible death for them.)

3) My main concern is that this dealer continues to sell koi on-line. Both Enchanted and I have pleaded with him to test his Koi and to refrain from selling until test results showing KHV negative have been received. Refused. Still selling on-line. Hopefully, mine was an isolated incident but I doubt that. I've heard this person has a reputation for being a "fish-shiester" within the industry amoung peers and has taken alot of people for money. Of course, that's hear-say and after-the-fact.

These koi were supposedly imported from Japan (Goshiki, Ki Utsuri, Showa and Sanke) and Taiwan (Kohaku), purchased from an importer/distributor on the West Coast - I think, California. Enchanted is the business partner with the medical background so I cannot communicate medical terminology as does she. I know that live imports must be quarantined for a certain period. Would not the KHV appear in at least some of the import fish during quarantine?

To whom should I report this concern so the seller can be investigated and stock checked for health without ruining their reputation - especially since koi could be shipped throughout the nation? I know, I'm too kind but I have yet to get really, really mad. My MAIN concern now are novices who would purchase koi and put directly into their pond without QT. Of course, in this case that didn't even help! I could have elected to not euthanize my entire population but did not want to take that risk.

Give me some input and suggestions - please!

~Watercolors

[Brutuscz]

I would give a nice disclaimer...stating that I cannot be 100% sure this dealer has khv until he tests. But...my last shipment before the problem came from dealer XYZ. Your not directly accusing him of having it...but, not letting him off the hook either. Sounds like a reasonable way to do it.