KHV deaths.... seller in denial

[Enchanted Koi]

recently we received a shipment of Koi from Northern East Coast USA. after several deaths we notified the seller. he informed us it was a water quality problem and made several assessments (our water tested WNL) he even said a bird probably defecated in QT and introduced some bacteria causing the death.
after several more days of continued death and treatments of medications we decided to have the remainder Koi tested. we chose 1 of the Universities approved by APHIS. we notified the seller that we had sent samples off, he began to yell about sterile conditions, second rate facilities, etc.... he further made suggestive remarks of authenticity of the koi. ( we documented and photographed everything, even the shipment before removed from container. we was able to verify the exact koi with the shipment from him) also we lied some.... we delivered the live Koi for testing under sterile conditions to Virginia Tech... (who then collected samples and shipped West for Viral testing) the seller assumed we collected the samples ourselves and we didn't disagree or explain he was definitely pulling many excuses out so we had to stay ahead of him in order to prove this came from him...) OK so now the results came back with all 3 samples positive with KHV. with the findings in hand we notified this seller, who immediately became irate and very defensive. "you better be careful what you say about my Koi" he Say's to us, "this DID NOT come from my facility" "Laboratories make up KHV results when they do not know what is wrong" etc......
we suggested to this seller to be responsible and QT his facility, stop selling and test his stock..... "Liers.... he says.... My Koi are certified healthy.... he says..... false testing ..... he says.... "
what do we do..... how many Koi must die because this man wants money and cares nothing of the art and beauty of the Koi....

help

[Fishy Mama]

Is this a location or a grower, resaler, or retailer? If you are sure that you are correct and the people still keep selling you could take your results to your local health department and discuss with them the sale of infectious fish. Our local health department shut down walmart fish sales last summer because of sick fish.

[Fishy Mama]

( we documented and photographed everything, even the shipment before removed from container. we was able to verify the exact koi with the shipment from him)


Why did you go to such trouble with a routine shipment of fish? Did you anticipate problems?

[JasPR]

Dear enchanted;

There are several possibilities here;

1) that YOU have a koi that is a carrier and that is the cause of KHV. I have seen this happen many times before and the poor dealer get's the blame.

2) that the test is a false positive, It happens a lot.

3) that the dealer knows and is a sleeze ball

4) that the dealer is convinced he is not the source as he is ignorant ( not an insult but a state of education) to the idea that you can have it and your fish are not dying. I kinda suspect this as 'fish pooping' in a pond, does not an infection make! That parts kinda whacky. The dealer could also have carriers that are healthy but ticking time bombs and he is unaware of that.

So I would say no one knows for sure if it is truly KHV and who is at fault. Honestly I don't think there is any 'fault' here as much as there is bad luck and an unfortunate roll of the roulette wheel.
I'd suggest that a third party get involved and send two fish from your collection and from his stock to two different labs. You might find that one comes back positive and one negative so be prepared for that.
You two need to work together to solve this one. And it sounds like you are both past the point of communicating. This is why a third party might be helpful. Contact a thrid party within AKCA or ZNA and see if they will help.
I would caution you against naming names at this point as you can't say 100% that the dealer has KHV, although I'm sure the test results have you thinking with confidence that he does.

One of things I'd like to see the AKCA KHV program do is work with 4 labs around the country and have all samples sent to those four labs. In return for the referrals, I would like these labs to keep records of samples. This data bank will become invaluable as it accrues data over time. In this case it would be helpful in that if other customers of the dealer come in positive we can contact the dealer and give him or her a heads up and encourage them to stop selling that lot. - JR

[MikeM]

It is not clear whether the shipment of fish was held in quarantine separate from other koi. If they were segregated, JR's alternative #1 would be eliminated. If there were 3 separate tests, the potential of all 3 being false positives seems rather low. If any survivors remain on hand, another test by a different facility would eliminate that concern. The remaining alternatives point to KHV. However, if the koi happen to be imports from Israel, they could be vaccinated and would test positive. Were you informed of the source? The dealer's attitude you describe is most unfortunate. I would expect expression of real concern about the welfare of the fish, concern for customers and the public, and a desire to help determine the problem. That is how a dealer builds a reputation and gains repeat business. This one has clearly failed with you on this score.

[JasPR]

Mike, they were not three separate tests. Three samples sent to the same lab. We have no idea if they did batch tests, or if they did nested PCRs or not. Just not enough information. Enchanted, am I right about that?
two labs is the best way to go. We see all the time, positive tests from one lab and negative from the other.


I didn't want to get too involved in this , but ;

Enchanted, how many fish were purchased and how many died?
how did the fish die ? can you describe the events that lead to death?
What was quarantine like?

I agree that the dealer sounds very defensive and that's likley because he knows the likely outcome for his business if you post his name on the Internet. I'm sure you would agree that if there is a chance you could be worng in your conclusions that that would be a terrible thing to do to a small business. I'd go a little slower before hanging this guy. - JR

[Enchanted Koi]

the reason we took photo's is because 1 Ki was DOA and we have never purchased anything like this before. and we wanted to have pictures for just in case something else went wrong. of course we knew of bacteria's and parasites but had no idea we would deal with anything like KHV. Plus this was our first time in receipt of live shipped Koi, and we wanted to know how this was done "step by step" per say.

I am in Va (no mandatory reports) and the seller is farther north (his state also no mandatory reports)

QT was separate from all other koi. I have the test results and will cut and copy them in just a minute

[Enchanted Koi]

this is the email report, the official findings are being mailed to us.
Oh I did omit our name in first line due to this man's threats....

Ms. ------,
I got these results from Dr. Goodwin last night. Unfortunately the news is not good. Your newly acquired fish were indeed infected with the KHV virus, and have most likely infected all your other fish. This disease will ultimately run its course with significant mortality. Survivors will be chronic carriers of the disease and infect any newly purchased fish you bring into your facility. My recommendation is to humanely euthanize all exposed fish in your facility, disinfect and start over. I have attached several articles on KHV for your information. I will send a final report to you next week by US mail. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me. SAS

Stephen A. Smith, DVM, PhD
Professor of Aquatic Medicine/Fish Health and
Director of the Aquatic Medicine Laboratory
Dept. Biomedical Sciences and Pathobiology
VA/MD Regional College of Veterinary Medicine


Hello Dr. Smith,

We have tested the samples that you submitted from ---------koi for KHV using quantitative PCR (Gilad et al). Koi numbers 1 and 3 were KHV-positive at about 2,000,000 KHV polymerase gene copies per reaction. Koi number 2 was positive, but with a copy number in the 100s/reaction. In our experience, the high levels of KHV in fish numbers 1 and 3 are consistent with clinical KHV disease. Fish 2 may be recently infected or in the recovery phase.
We would be happy to put together a more formal report of our test results if such documentation is needed. If there is any way that we can be of additional help to your or your client, please let me know.

Regards,

Andrew E. Goodwin, Ph.D.
Professor/Associate Director
Fish Pathologist/Inspector (AFS-FHS)
Aquaculture/Fisheries Center
University of Arkansas at Pine Bluff
1200 N. University Drive
Mail Slot 4912
Pine Bluff, AR 71601

[Brutuscz]

Without naming names....Is this dealer in Massachusetts? If so...I have a good idea who it is. Sorry about the trouble your having, just awful.

[Enchanted Koi]

signs and symptoms post death:
11 Koi total,
1 DOA some increased slime coat no other visuals, water smelled horrible
day 2: 2 more deaths no visuals except around gills ** seller said Tosi was weak and probably couldn't overcome the stress of shipping***
Day 4: 1 death (this one was coming up for about 5 hours before death lethargic) some areas on the body
day 6: 2 more again these 2 were lethargic and coming up, their bodies appeared to be hemorrhaging and all fins had blood at surface
* seller said had to be a water problem*
Day 8: 2 more dead same as above with lethargic, hemorrhaging covering entire body with many areas on body
Day 10: 1 death again lethargic and coming up, lesions of fins severe, lots of blood under surface.
* seller said bird feces caused a bacterial infection***
Day 11: (wee hours of the morning disassembled QT moved 3 remaining to med tanks so we could document the progress of this while we figured out where and how to get them tested. we have very few resources in this area and local vets wouldn't test. we was informed of Virginia Tech, and from there we was informed of University of Arkansas.....

*** now with understanding the KHV gestation and transmit ion the belief is that a carrier was shipped and the stress of the shipping caused an outbreak, thus infecting the entire shippment.... or an infected fish was shipped with no knowledge of the seller prior to, and thus infected the entire shippment.....