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Thread: beni kumonryu and kumonryu ?

  1. #1
    Fry
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    Jul 2009
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    beni kumonryu and kumonryu ?

    hi all i am new to koi and have a few questions. first i would like to say forgive me if the questions r dumb. i like both beni kumonryu and kumonryu and would like to breed koi. my first question is can two beni kumonryu produce kumonryu offspring? seccond could one cross the two or is that not recomended? i know wut to look for in koi but is there somthing special i should look for in these koi? special patterns to look for in young koi or just stick with body conformation? i know their pattern may or will change over time. will the sumi receed on the darker ones or is it there to stay?

  2. #2
    Jumbo RobF's Avatar
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    Welcome fry. You ask the question of a beginner. Most of us were beginners at one time (there may be a few around here s o old that they predate history!). Breeding koi is easy, you just put them together at the right time and wham youíve got a 100,000. Although I have heard that Kumonryu are hard to breed, K x K or K x bK should yield some K and a lot of other not K. Keeping the babies alive, and picking out a few from the mass is the trick and it is a trick that generations of koi boys have practiced but never perfected. Nonetheless, most koi keepers will give backyard farming a go or two over time, and the most of lessons learned have to be experienced. But I would advise you, donít hurry, read up on what you are planning (there are endless threads here and elsewhere from which you can learn). For most the prime time for spawning this year has passed, but the farms (and Hobbyists) have lots of fingerlings now. If I wanted to raise kumonryu now I would contact one of the established farms, Blackwater comes to mind when I think kumonryu, and see about getting a dozen or so baby ones from them.

  3. #3
    Daihonmei
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    Breeding koi is very tricky. Because they tend not to breed true. To make matters more complicated you picked a variety that is more a group of koi crosses than a simple breeding like say with yamabuki. The reason I say this is because some koi are from parents of the same type ( kohaku X kohaku for instance or Sanke X Sanke) where as the best representatives of other 'varieties' are actually crosses. And the best ones are made from a predictable cross of two different varieties.
    Kumonryu is a specific type of fish. it is from what is known as the karasugoi and has the distinctive black and white coloring. But unlike the other members of the karasugoi it is mixed with doitsu or scaleless fish. The doitsu is linked to another gene for pattern and the pattern is typically on the side of the fish ( lateral line pattern). So this fish is then the kumonryu and can be gotten a number of ways from Kumonryu X Kumonryu or from Karasu goi like Matsukawabake X shusui. But the beni Kumonryu can be Kumonryu X showa, or X goshiki or kohaku!
    In the end it is the skill of the culling and the expectation of the buyer that decides what a beni kumonryu will look like and be bred from.
    Hope this helps? JR

  4. #4
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Note: Doitsu bred with doitsu is genetically weak. You will have better success breeding doitsu with wagoi.

  5. #5
    Daihonmei
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    yep--- and sometimes the combination or lack thereof, produces a lethal gene in unlucky protential larvae. JR

  6. #6
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    for the most part, breeding koi to parents of the same color variety generally works out pretty well to get representatives of thier variety. There are exceptions when you get serious. One of them is beni Kumonryu. the higher quality one comes from the initial pairing used to create it. My knowledge is with Kumonryu and douitsu kohaku couplings.
    Last time i bred Kumonryu, one of mine was selected for RGC at a young fish show. I had rated it as #2 for the breeding. If I had to pick out a top class japanese breeder of kumonryu it would be Iizuka. When i selected tosai from his breeding it would always be the ones that were black with white face and just a bit of white from the forehead running up into the shoulder. They always seemed to develop into the best and stable patterns as adults. You'll have to share your passion with us in photos....
    good luck!
    Dick Benbow

  7. #7
    Fry
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    well i am definetly going to do more reserch before i buy and breed i have other koi but not of much quality and am getting some brown ones from a friend i havent seen them yet but he says that they are big so i cant wait to see their quality maybe i can keep a few but i am getting rid of all the lesser quality koi for space for some really good ones thanks for the help i love the ever changeing kumonryu they are alot like myself cant make up my mind but then teh red on the beni kumonryu so should i stick with one or get both

  8. #8
    Daihonmei
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    if you do the beni you are also likely to get some normal kumonryu. JR

  9. #9
    Fry
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    what should i look for in the color of the young beni and where is a good place to get some thanks again for the help

  10. #10
    Fry
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    which is the better fish in conformation and color
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails beni kumonryu and kumonryu ?-koi-1.jpg   beni kumonryu and kumonryu ?-koi-2.jpg   beni kumonryu and kumonryu ?-koi3.jpg   beni kumonryu and kumonryu ?-koi4.jpg  

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