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Thread: Fish fecal matter

  1. #11
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    No, I'm not interested in games- just answers. And I think it's best to vet your facts a step at a time as I see you are already off base. Dude, you can't google physiology of humans ( or some facts about fish in general) and cross it over in theory. So lets make sure the google muscles are accurate before you move on. Otherwise we have yet another left turn in education that will need to be fixed down the road. Fair? JR

    PS are those poison arrow frogs still keeping you awake? ( get my point?)
    JR, I am still waiting for a picture of your pond water. How deep did you say it was? Oh excuse me, I never did get an answer to that proposal. I think your sphincter muscle is getting a little tight JR, take a breath.

  2. #12
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaBear View Post
    KK,
    I was giving you a mulligan on the sphincter def, but since you outed yourself I guess you're back on the hook. Since you dont' want to answer JR's question, here's mine.

    "Since the stomachless koi count on the bucal cavity and mill works so much for digestion, those tiny little raspy papillae are very important to the fish. "

    Please explain this statement.

    Larry
    More reading has produced this. Keep in mind the purpose of this quiz was to draw attention to digestion of carp. The mouth, buccal cavity and pharynx are associated with predigestion of food. There are bucco-pharyngeal feeding mechanisms of the bottom feeding carp. On the epitheral lining of this cavity are papillae (nipple shaped) type structures that project beyond the epithelium or taste buds as well as mucous cells, club cells and lymphocytes. To suggest the papillae are like what you find on a dog's tung is not the point. The point is they exist in the bucco-pharyngeal cavity and they serve a purpose in the consumption of food.

  3. #13
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingkong View Post
    More reading has produced this. Keep in mind the purpose of this quiz was to draw attention to digestion of carp. The mouth, buccal cavity and pharynx are associated with predigestion of food. There are bucco-pharyngeal feeding mechanisms of the bottom feeding carp. On the epitheral lining of this cavity are papillae (nipple shaped) type structures that project beyond the epithelium or taste buds as well as mucous cells, club cells and lymphocytes. To suggest the papillae are like what you find on a dog's tung is not the point. The point is they exist in the bucco-pharyngeal cavity and they serve a purpose in the consumption of food.
    True enough, but it still only addresses the beginning of the process. Leave the middle and the end out of the equation and you are dead in the water. There is no "one thing" in the process that is singularly more important than the rest as every part of the digestive process is completely dependent on all others...

  4. #14
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaBear View Post
    True enough, but it still only addresses the beginning of the process. Leave the middle and the end out of the equation and you are dead in the water. There is no "one thing" in the process that is singularly more important than the rest as every part of the digestive process is completely dependent on all others...
    What equation are you speeking of Papa?

  5. #15
    Daihonmei
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    OK, your thread, your rules. This should be interesting--- JR

  6. #16
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    Don't go soft on me JR now. I do more research when I am being watched. Ok
    Nitrogen
    Most feed Nitrogen is found in amino acids, the basic unit of protein. Intestinal enzymes break down the feed protein into amino acids which are absorbed to buid new proteins such as muscle and papillae.
    Excreted Nitrogen from the fish comes from several sources. Can you name the sources from the fish? I have 4 listed in my notes.

  7. #17
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    I understand, you would rather read about a kohaku that took top honors but guess what, that kohaku does the #2 as well. So here are the mystic pass words for the first fecal club get together. A real mouthful .....well you understand.
    Biological Fixation
    Ammonification
    Nitrification
    Decomposition
    Mineralization
    Eutrophication
    Denitrification
    or Bandmed
    I think if we understood and practiced all these things, there would be little need for meds.
    Now for the answers of the sources for excreted Nitrogen.

    1. Undigested and unabsorbed dietary protein
    2. Sloughed intestinal cells
    3. Amino acids absorbed in amounts greater than fish can utilize
    4. Degraded metabolic products

    Next, the percentages of Nirogen effluent that are dissolved or solid. It shocked me.
    Until the next movement.....

  8. #18
    Daihonmei
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    Dude, I wrote this paper six years ago after the answer unit was available in mass. The difference between an aquarium and an outdoor pond is huge. And the koi is only a part of the problem. Aquariums are part inorganic ammonia and part organic decay. Ponds are initially the same challenge in terms of inorganic ammonia toxins but over time ( a short period of time) ponds are dominated by organics progressively.
    Koi produce 70-85% of the ammonia from the gills as inorganic ammonia, and lesser amounts from a weak constant flow of unine and less frequent solid urea. And then from the decay of that urea. But in practical terms, the carp is a scavanger and as such, passes massive amounts of undigestible algae, shells and the like thru the gut for another cleaning crew of bacteria to clean up. That crew can be anaerobic or aerobic-- denitrification or mineralization are the processes. So in this regard it benefits the keeper to get as much as they can of that isolated organic content away from the koi and OUT of the closed system ( daily sump dumps). Remember, just because the organics are out of the pond area and the water is clear that does not mean that decay of mineralization, denitrification ( Heaven forbid) are removed from the system! They are still taking place in piles within the sump and filter bases.

    But this is only one dimension of the issue of eutrophication ( an ever growing process of organic build up and associated micro-organisms including pseudomonas and aeromonas).
    The terms we use in aquaculture are misleading sometimes without context. 'Organics' is everything of an organic nature ( carbon based). So from a filtration view, only dense organics and some fines can be 'filtered out' using traditional techniques. In the case of a pond, the real boogy man is really the organic content of the water column in the form of DISSOLVED organics or DOCs. These can not settled out or strained out. They must be diluted or bound and removed. This means water changes and/or foam fractionation and some chemical/resin use.
    But I'm sure I'm now getting away from topic so back to our thread host--- JR

  9. #19
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    Six years ago...well then it is time for a little refreshing. The class of '03' has graduated and have jobs, well some of them are working.
    By the way a "Dude", as invented by Jonathen Periam in 1883 in his book 'The home and farm manuel' denotes an ill-bred and ignorant but ostentatious man from the city. Now JR I was born in a country hospital and my IQ is scarry sharp ..... what does ostentatious mean ?

  10. #20
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    Feed protein (N) quality and quantity are important factors to watch in controlling effluent Nitrogen. Most Nitrogen excreted by fish is lost through the gills in a dissolved form. What?, that's what the journal says.
    With feed Nitrogen at 100 parts, upon ingestion, 30 parts are retained and used by the fish, while 70 parts end up as effluent. That stinks. Of the 70 parts of effluent Nitrogen 87% is dissolved and 13% is solid.

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