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Thread: For Mike M

  1. #1
    Sansai
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    For Mike M

    Mike--Sharon wanted to post this picture of her Doitsu, said she had mentioned it to you last fall at the harvest. She is 23.5 inches long, 6 hrs old now from Sakai when purchased.

  2. #2
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    I recall the conversation. But, I'm not seeing the photo. ...?? Has my security software done me in, again?

  3. #3
    Sansai
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    Success, picture up loaded, I'll have Sharon fill in the blanks as to why she wanted the picture posted for you. I think it has something to do with parent koi for one of your koi purchased from Mat. Doitsu is at least five years old now, took this picture Monday.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails For Mike M-2009-doitsu.jpg  

  4. #4
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Well, OK, I'll wait for Sharon.

    ...But, what I really want to know is if the two of you will make to Carneys Point in October. Then she can tell me all about her solo to Japan and make me very envious. (And, we'll see if the 'Kujaku' masquerading as a Hariwake has decided to dress up. )

  5. #5
    Sansai
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    Hi Mike,

    The Doitsu Kujaku is a sister to the parent koi of your fish at Mat's.

    We are off to Seattle this weekend for the last show in our area. Just going to show three fish.

    I will not be able to come to the harvest at NKF this year
    I will still be in Japan. Will hate to miss it !!!!

  6. #6
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Too bad. I'll miss not having the chance to compare notes on the koi.

    Your Doitsu Kujaku is very interesting. We think of Kujaku as a metallic Kohaku with matsuba scalation. The dorsal patterning on Kujaku is often not as strong as in Kohaku, but the dorsal orientation is nonetheless clear. This one, however, is more laterally patterned, as in Shusui. If you chose to consider her a metallic Shusui, I would not argue the point. She is a rather unique koi. [I wonder how JR analyzes the patterning. ]

    Good luck at the show!

  7. #7
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    Too bad. I'll miss not having the chance to compare notes on the koi.

    Your Doitsu Kujaku is very interesting. We think of Kujaku as a metallic Kohaku with matsuba scalation. The dorsal patterning on Kujaku is often not as strong as in Kohaku, but the dorsal orientation is nonetheless clear. This one, however, is more laterally patterned, as in Shusui. If you chose to consider her a metallic Shusui, I would not argue the point. She is a rather unique koi. [I wonder how JR analyzes the patterning. ]

    Good luck at the show!
    metallic shusui?
    can ya tell me..do you see it as a black-based fish?

  8. #8
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    ?? Not sure what you mean, Luke. The metallic Shusui (Kinsui) has the same genetic forebears as Doitsu Kujaku. Are you thinking of Kikokuryu, the metallic Kumonryu?

    I have not studied photos of Doitsu Kujaku for the purpose of classifying the beni pattern as dorsal or lateral. I'm going to be paying more attention. Perhaps such a strong lateral beni pattern is not as unusual as I am thinking. Too much of JR's pattern lecture on my brain lately? The few photos of Kinsui I recall have been of fish with darkish undertones, as is seen in poor examples of Asagi and Shusui. Altogether, not an impressive variety in my mind. But, if Sharon's Doitsu Kujaku is seen as Kinsui, it stands out from all I can recall. I'll need to check a lot of photo spreads before saying she is in a class of her own as an example of what the variety Kinsui could be. It does make me think of how Sakai re-defined Goshiki as a Kohaku highlighted by blue scales in the white ground, but I have not studied enough to have a conclusion.

  9. #9
    Daihonmei
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    just seems like the pic is of a fish with a black base...so would that make a shusui

  10. #10
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    ?? Not sure what you mean, Luke. The metallic Shusui (Kinsui) has the same genetic forebears as Doitsu Kujaku. Are you thinking of Kikokuryu, the metallic Kumonryu?

    I have not studied photos of Doitsu Kujaku for the purpose of classifying the beni pattern as dorsal or lateral. I'm going to be paying more attention. Perhaps such a strong lateral beni pattern is not as unusual as I am thinking. Too much of JR's pattern lecture on my brain lately? The few photos of Kinsui I recall have been of fish with darkish undertones, as is seen in poor examples of Asagi and Shusui. Altogether, not an impressive variety in my mind. But, if Sharon's Doitsu Kujaku is seen as Kinsui, it stands out from all I can recall. I'll need to check a lot of photo spreads before saying she is in a class of her own as an example of what the variety Kinsui could be. It does make me think of how Sakai re-defined Goshiki as a Kohaku highlighted by blue scales in the white ground, but I have not studied enough to have a conclusion.
    Hi Mike,
    It is common for Doitsu Kujaku to have a lateral pattern. One way to tell the difference if parentage is unknown is the type of scale matsuba ornamentation. Kujaku also tend to have 1/2 or less of the scales with border ornamentation including any lateral line scales. Shusui would tend to have the majority of the dorsal scales covered with ornamentation.

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