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Thread: Tategoi don't mean nothing more than "Guess"

  1. #1
    Daihonmei
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    Tategoi don't mean nothing more than "Guess"

    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi View Post
    Mat is calling this fish "Tatagoi"? Did he say that in his post? I searched through it and found one reference to this Koi as "Tategoi":



    That was almost 3 years ago. Just because a koi is Tategoi at one point in time to the breeder, does not mean that it is forever Tategoi.

    The Americanized definition of Tategoi is along the lines of: potential to improve (short version).

    Potential is just that, potential to, without guarantee that it will.

    For the record, Tatagoi in Japan is a reference for a koi to have potential to improve to championship level (very short version). Tyoically, once a Breeder sells a koi it is no longer Tategoi (even though it is still common to use this term).

    Now, keep in mind breeders tend not to sell Tategoi and if they do, they are pretty costly. My "guess" is that Mat recognized that this koi either a) did not have the potential that he earlier percieved, or b) the koi had peaked and thus, again did not have that same potential to improve or at least not have the potential to improve to a point that warrented the added costs of raising such.....but that is speculation. In either event, I would suggest that at the point of purchase and with the pricing, the Koi was no longer "Tategoi" (by any definition) at the time of sale.

    Oh, on a side note, there are those that say, "True Tatagoi". I love that one. That is an inference that either others lie about their Tatagoi or that those using this term lied about those that they claimed were only "Tatagoi."

    This point goes back to "vested interest" again.

    Steve
    Time to put this old rag to bed..and Schilders shoulda thought it out long ago...
    A breeder can't keep every fish that is gonna continue to improve nor every fish that os gonna improve to championship level..and most of the fish he keeps won't ever improve to championship level so most of the fish aren't tategoi that he keeps but breeders wanna call them tategoi...
    Koi that can improve are sold by every breeder out there, They do not have the resources to keep all the koi they create that still have the potential to improve...not even the ones that have the potential to improve to championship level...and mostly they keep alot of koi around that never reach championship level but were called tategoi the year before...
    "Tategoi" is part of the smoke and mirrors used by breeders and dealers....
    Buy this tategoi...means buy this "DREAM"
    "I sell you"tategoi." means "I will sell you a dream."
    Do you believe in Dreams? Does Dumbo believe in the feather wrapped in his trunk?
    "Tategoi" is a guess...and the Guess in Japan is "I guess it could become a fish of a high level" (per schilders).
    and in America the term tategoi means, "I guess it could get better."

    As a side bar I find the definition of "tategoi" as used in Japan extremely vexing..as "Championship level" is determined by the koi entered on that day, in that competition...
    So "tategoi" koi for the Arkansas Pig-Pulling and Koi Show is gonna be a heap easier to say with a straight face than for the CFKS and Yankee Sun-tanning Vacation when talking about the same koi.

    Do Japanese breeders say, " This tategoi for local club show held if no one bring ringer from real koi farm."


    Come to think of it that definition is a double whammy...thye are selling tategoi and have to escape clauses in the definition....
    First it is a dream, second if the competition on the day is better than the koi woulda been tategoi had some other breeder not made better koi back when that one was made....


    The American definition is a less convoluted notion..' If a koi can be viewed as perhaps getting better then it is tategoi." Take "tategoi" for what it is worth.

    Hell if I had any koi in my pond there would be two kinds...Tategoi (those I think have a chance of improving), and those that are like me.

  2. #2
    Oyagoi Ethan25's Avatar
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    I was thinking about this all morning.

    Tategoi should mean something different to the breeder than to the collector. A tategoi to a breeder may mean that it has worth for him or her keeping long term, in order to get the most out of the koi (as they cannot keep every single fish).

    A dealer may release a tategoi for sale if they simply have too many. I think it is possible for a dealer to have too many fish they would rather keep in the mud for a season or two more than their facilities would allow.

    THus, this fish is passed off to the consumer/collector, who has a fish that may be considered tategoi truthfully still by the breeder. One man's tategoi is another's pondgrade koi.

    If tategoi sincerely means "potential to improve (short version)", then many of us have tategoi. But, then, there are high end and low end tategoi....fish that may have potential to be worthy of taking to show, and fish that may have potential to win a show.

  3. #3
    Oyagoi mstrseed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethan25 View Post

    If tategoi sincerely means "potential to improve (short version)", then many of us have tategoi. But, then, there are high end and low end tategoi....fish that may have potential to be worthy of taking to show, and fish that may have potential to win a show.
    Sorry Ethan no such thing as high end and low end tategoi.................as a rule, what the term actually means is you could not afford to buy the Koi in question until the breeder felt there was nothing left to continue to hold if for. Unless you were willing to shell out the high 5 or 6 figures to pry it from a breeder. Tatagoi are usually what the breeder take to the all Japan show..............can you grasp that?

  4. #4
    Oyagoi CarolinaGirl's Avatar
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    If a breeder really and truly considers a fish tategoi, he knows he can keep it and sell it for lots more later on. There is no such thing as a low-end tategoi. I found this quote on the web:

    "If you ask a Japanese breeder to define Tategoi it immediately becomes clear that there is no direct translation for the meaning.
    The word has many nuances which the breeder will struggle to convey and we can find difficult to understand. The basics are that it represents a koi which is worth keeping, to carefully study and follow on virtually a daily basis. All the while, watching to see how its quality & develpoment compares to the parent Koi so that decisions can be made for future pairings. Will it make a good parent Koi itself or will it be a top quality show Koi ? "

  5. #5
    Oyagoi Ethan25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mstrseed View Post
    Sorry Ethan no such thing as high end and low end tategoi.................as a rule, what the term actually means is you could not afford to buy the Koi in question until the breeder felt there was nothing left to continue to hold if for. Unless you were willing to shell out the high 5 or 6 figures to pry it from a breeder. Tatagoi are usually what the breeder take to the all Japan show..............can you grasp that?
    So, all tategoi are equal, right? The fish they keep are tategoi....if it is let go, it is not.

    right?

    I am trying to understand...

  6. #6
    Oyagoi mstrseed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethan25 View Post
    So, all tategoi are equal, right? The fish they keep are tategoi....if it is let go, it is not.

    right?

    I am trying to understand...
    No your trying to be difficult. I think your little club has your head swollen..........or are you being used as someones puppet?
    Your trying to have the term pigeon holed and like Cindy has stated it can't be.

    Read books!!! LISTEN CAREFULLY........

  7. #7
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethan25 View Post
    So, all tategoi are equal, right? The fish they keep are tategoi....if it is let go, it is not.

    right?

    I am trying to understand...

    The term Tategoi is the most misunderstood, mis-used term in the koi hobby. Volumes could most likely be written on what Tategoi is and what Tategoi is not and why.

    No, not all Tategoi are equal. They are not equal from breeder to breeder nor even within a single breeder, from one given year to the next. They are the cream of that given crop for that given breeder. They are the ones worth investing more time and mud pond space with inorder to realize the full potential and thus profit for that given group of koi.

    To buy a "true" Tategoi, at 2 years old, the breeder will price it at what he believes it "could" be worth at 4-6 years of age if it turns out as expected. The cream of the crop may not even be priced for sale.

    Keeping that in mnind, is one willing to accept that "risk" at that price or wait and see if it turns out as expected and pay that price? Keep in mind, the koi may not turn out as expected......worse (you lose), or even better (you win). Wanna guess what happens more times than not?

    As an example, if a breeder holds 100 Tategoi Tosai Kohaku to raise on but is willing to sell you one of these, he may charge as much as $5000 since he believes that he will be able to get that much for it by 4 years old. Now after the Nisai harvest, ho many of those 100 are kept another year? 50 or less? That means that 50 of these "Tategoi" are no longer Tategoi since the breeder now does n0ot think that they have the potential that he once believed that they may have had....or that he does not have further space to grow them on....but even in this case, these 50 have been judged to be inferior to the 50 Tategoi he is keeping to grow on another year. The lesser 50 are sold for varying prices depending on the market at that point in time. Now, outy of the 50 he kept to grow to Sansai, how many will he keep the following year? 20 perhaps? 10 the following year and rarely any over 5 years. Wanna take a stab at how costly those last 10 or so are? Many of the original Tosai Tategoi (the 100) turn out poorly even some of those sold as "Tategoi" that first year.

    Also keep in mind that we are not talking about the literally thousands that the breeder may have sold that didn't even make it to his "sellect" group of Tategoi.

    Steve
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. schildkoi@aol.com
    CKHPA

  8. #8
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    Also, tategoi are not sold by the size alone.

  9. #9
    Oyagoi Ethan25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi View Post
    The term Tategoi is the most misunderstood, mis-used term in the koi hobby. Volumes could most likely be written on what Tategoi is and what Tategoi is not and why.

    No, not all Tategoi are equal. They are not equal from breeder to breeder nor even within a single breeder, from one given year to the next. They are the cream of that given crop for that given breeder. They are the ones worth investing more time and mud pond space with inorder to realize the full potential and thus profit for that given group of koi.

    To buy a "true" Tategoi, at 2 years old, the breeder will price it at what he believes it "could" be worth at 4-6 years of age if it turns out as expected. The cream of the crop may not even be priced for sale.

    Keeping that in mnind, is one willing to accept that "risk" at that price or wait and see if it turns out as expected and pay that price? Keep in mind, the koi may not turn out as expected......worse (you lose), or even better (you win). Wanna guess what happens more times than not?

    As an example, if a breeder holds 100 Tategoi Tosai Kohaku to raise on but is willing to sell you one of these, he may charge as much as $5000 since he believes that he will be able to get that much for it by 4 years old. Now after the Nisai harvest, ho many of those 100 are kept another year? 50 or less? That means that 50 of these "Tategoi" are no longer Tategoi since the breeder now does n0ot think that they have the potential that he once believed that they may have had....or that he does not have further space to grow them on....but even in this case, these 50 have been judged to be inferior to the 50 Tategoi he is keeping to grow on another year. The lesser 50 are sold for varying prices depending on the market at that point in time. Now, outy of the 50 he kept to grow to Sansai, how many will he keep the following year? 20 perhaps? 10 the following year and rarely any over 5 years. Wanna take a stab at how costly those last 10 or so are? Many of the original Tosai Tategoi (the 100) turn out poorly even some of those sold as "Tategoi" that first year.

    Also keep in mind that we are not talking about the literally thousands that the breeder may have sold that didn't even make it to his "sellect" group of Tategoi.

    Steve

    Thank you, Steve. That was very helpful, and very insightful.

    That makes sense about selling the fish as tategoi for what it COULD turn out to be later on at life. Otherwise, they are selling off longterm investments before they mature, in one sense.

  10. #10
    Oyagoi
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    At the Minnesota show Marudo had a question answer sessio with devin doing the translation.basically said the koi seem to change ponds and grades even during the winter in greenhouses.just see different things as time permits during winter then when quickly grading koi.course he was talking the small koi.

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