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Thread: Dawn of the New/Old style Sanke?

  1. #1
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Dawn of the New/Old style Sanke?

    There has been discussions on koi boards and koi communities about the Best in 80bu Champion of the Nogyosai show. Ray Jordan contacted Mark and inquired where it was benched and he said it was benched as Sanke. I put the Sanke side by side with another famous Sanke, whatcha think?

    More pics of the show on Mark's site:
    http://www.niigata-nishikigoi.com/node/575
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dawn of the New/Old style Sanke?-sanke-showa.jpg  

  2. #2
    Sansai MCPS Mike's Avatar
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    Lacking sumi on the pecs but look showa to me.
    A rose by any other name...beautiful koi.

  3. #3
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    or could be another theory....

    From a breeder's perspective, a lot of sanke sumi has been used to improve the quality of sumi in showa. When you cross the two as a breeder, you are probably looking for one or two individuals, most likely males to use . the rest of the spawn can be sold to underwrite
    the expense of producing the one or two individuals. So it is not unusual to find high quality female examples that exhibit both inheritances.

    It could be a new trend, just like fat and thin men's ties....the style often swings back and forth but i really think what we're seeing has more to do
    with improvement of sumi and not style of pattern.

    just my conviction
    Dick Benbow

  4. #4
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    The koi on the left deserves a lot of study. She was benched as Sanke at the Nogyosai and took honors in her size. The body structure is Sanke. (If she had the strong shoulder of the traditional Dainichi Showa body, would you see her as Sanke?) As best as can be told from the photo, the skin quality is very good. The beni appears to be high quality. The sumi is the lacquer sumi expected on Sanke. To my eye, however, the sumi wraps the body as in Showa. These are sumi bands, not large dorsal patches. (Others seem to see it differently. So, if you disagree with my perception, you are not alone. I think the body-type affects how the sumi is perceived.) When I asked on another board whether she was at her peak, there were no direct responses. The more I look at her, the more I feel that she has not peaked. I see areas of beni that may tighten further, and there is underlying sumi that has not consolidated. If the sumi fills in further, particularly on the head where menware can be anticipated, the current 'atmosphere' of being Sanke would change considerably. She does not appear to have motoguro, but with full development of her sumi I see the 'atmosphere' becoming Showa.

    There has been much chatter about 'showanke' on the boards over the past 7 years or so, with a lot of different opinions. The All Japan GC a couple of years ago had the Sanke-type body and was a vision of near perfection in pigment. There was no question she was Showa based on sumi patterning, but certainly not traditional. I was not awestruck by her, because she did not have the strong Showa body-type I love. But, I could sure appreciate her incredible beauty.

    As breeders continue to blur the distinctions in the quest to improve Showa, there are going to be more magnificent specimens that do not neatly fit pre-conceptions of what is Sanke and what is Showa. This is where judging can greatly influence the direction of nishikigoi. If judges see such blended specimens as being neither and therefore unworthy, the market for them will be greatly affected. Some few may carry high value as 'collector koi', but mainly they would not carry the premium pricing of show contenders and would become pond ornaments due to the perceived undesirable ambivalence. Breeders will invest pond space and time accordingly. The 'right' decision will be made by the many judges whose collective decisions over numerous shows set a standard. The judging responsibility cannot be minimzed. It is in this regard that I wonder how this koi would be viewed by ZNA-trained judges at the ZNA All Japan, compared to judging at the Nogyosai.

    Should she be judged for the advancement she represents, or for the shortcomings in relation to current classification conventions? Or, is she simply unfinished? Of course, some koi never finish.

  5. #5
    Jumbo farne230's Avatar
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    IMO-the koi on the right should be considered a showa, as mentioned the pectral fine sumi and head sumi. Beautiful koi.
    Bob

  6. #6
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Hello Tony . . .

    Thanks for the side-by-side. (She's one of my favorite koi BTW.)

    IMHO, the Dainichi sanke on the left (which won the 80 bu 2009 Nogyosai class) can't compare with Mr. Tepsit's 91 cm Momotaro sanke on the right (which won the All Asian Koi Show GC in 2008) for sheer beauty.

    And (again IMHO) while the Momo pushes the edge of the sanke envelope the Dainichi sanke shreds it.

    Furthermore, I don't think it's a coincidence that the Momo sanke began its climb to fame in the Shinkokai circuit (breeder/dealer circuit; profit oriented) -- rather than the ZNA circuit (amateur circuit; much more traditional).

    To repeat what I posted the other day in another parish about this Dainichi sanke, when breeders stop culling to re-inforce phenotype, we can end up with magnificent fish that don't fit within varietal standards -- such as these showanke types.

    Maybe it's because the breeder is trying something new (such as developing atarashi sumi, etc.)?

    Unfortunately, letting F2 and F3 'sanke' with menware, motoguru, &/or wrapping sumi out on to the open market only causes confusion.

    IMHO, the hobby would have been much better off had they kept these fish off the market until they could get the sumi markings 'back where they belong.' LOL

    If shows are to reward fish that are the best examples of their variety, how can we rate these tweeners highly when they don't fit within either variety's standard?

    That's why some collector fish can command top dollar but never win a ribbon at a show.

    And, no, the answer is not to rewrite varietal standards or to invent new ones.

    Sometimes life just isn't fair -- and come showtime, these showanke must pay the piper for not staying within the lines.

    Just my thoughts,
    Don Chandler
    Member: AKCA, ZNA, KoiUSA

  7. #7
    Oyagoi Flounder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farne230 View Post
    IMO-the koi on the right should be considered a showa, as mentioned the pectral fine sumi and head sumi. Beautiful koi.
    Bob
    Bob, it is not a showa! That's tejima on the pecs NOT motoguru AND sumi on the head does not mean that it's a showa.

  8. #8
    Nisai Sigma Koi's Avatar
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    interesting

    This thread is taking a turn similar to one that I started on another board; especially MikeM's comment (but not limited to Showa and Sanke):

    "As breeders continue to blur the distinctions in the quest to improve Showa, there are going to be more magnificent specimens that do not neatly fit pre-conceptions of what is Sanke and what is Showa. This is where judging can greatly influence the direction of nishikigoi. If judges see such blended specimens as being neither and therefore unworthy, the market for them will be greatly affected. Some few may carry high value as 'collector koi', but mainly they would not carry the premium pricing of show contenders and would become pond ornaments due to the perceived undesirable ambivalence. Breeders will invest pond space and time accordingly. The 'right' decision will be made by the many judges whose collective decisions over numerous shows set a standard. The judging responsibility cannot be minimzed. It is in this regard that I wonder how this koi would be viewed by ZNA-trained judges at the ZNA All Japan, compared to judging at the Nogyosai.

    My question-as over there- who controls the standards by which the koi are judged? Is it consumer demand and popularity or official groups and judges?

    ~Raymond.
    Last edited by Sigma Koi; 11-06-2009 at 04:53 PM. Reason: typo

  9. #9
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Hello Raymond . . .

    Thought you might enjoy this intelligent, articulate and educational ramble from James Reilly which would appear to answer your question?

    Best wishes,
    ________________________

    Producer, Consumer, Judge


    JR 13 Apr 2008
    http://members4.boardhost.com/koimag/msg/1208092498.html

    Who knows best?

    While chatting with a friend this morning I came upon an interesting question;

    WHO determines which koi are best and what koi should look like?

    Is it the breeders? That sounds logical. But they are a loose group of individuals all doing their own thing? And often producing koi for the simple purpose of what will sell. Is it the buying public that sets the bar? If that were true then surely we would all own longfins and tateshita as fool’s gold’ by now?

    Is it the amateur koi judge at amateur koi shows? Some say they are way out of their depth telling lifelong second generation breeders how to look at koi?!

    The truth is, Nishikigoi as a hobby, and as an art, is unique. It has developed as a collecting mania since soon after the famous 1912 Tokyo exhibition and shows no signs of letting up.

    To appreciate the evolution of koi as both a business and pleasant past time, we need to first appreciate the mentality of the times of early koi production. Koi breeding was born out of fascination. And then enthusiasm, competition, trading and finally sales. The breeder of yester year was really the first amateur hobbyist. This transformed over the years and became more of a ‘speculation business’ than a hobby. In one respect ‘koi breeding’ became like panning for gold or buying lottery tickets.

    As the evolution progressed, competition among breeders and competition among dealers to secure the wealthy collector created a distribution system. In many cases and even today, the dealer is the customer’s advisor- advising about artistic taste and detail of nishikigoi.

    Enter the ‘fancy carp’ societies— this was really a matter of nishikigoi hobby coming of age. In this phase of the nishikigoi experience we see innocence give way to sophistication and those wealthy ‘know nothing collectors’ beginning to take control of the big picture of the hobby. For a while there was great harmony between dealer/breeder and customer/ collector. But growing up involves some pain. And soon, the desire for maximum mark up (lower quality for more money) and show manipulation lead to a split in the otherwise tranquil word of Nishikigoi. And as amateurs became more sophisticated, they not only controlled their own destiny they became the keepers of the standards.

    In this writer’s opinion, that was NOT a bad thing. That was a GOOD thing. As standards and expectations rose within the ‘fancy koi enthusiasts’ ranks, the bar was raised. And the dance began. We see it in the pictures of 1960s koi vs. 2000 koi. We see it in the level of understanding the average koi keeper possesses today.

    As the breeders work hard to produce a sellable product that the public will buy or perhaps even pay up for, the amateur koi show acts as a critique for the product. And it becomes a partnership between ‘painter/artist/goal prospector’ and ‘art collector/ art critic’. Every mother fells their child is the most beautiful to ever grace the planet. And every koi breeder thinks his best are THE best. And unfortunately others will hype what they know to be inferior to anyone silly enough to buy it.

    The koi show, the standards, the informed amateur expectation and the ‘art critic’, in the form of the koi judge then act as a counter balance to the commercial aspect of the hobby.

    And this function is more important than ever as the number of breeders drops from the old highs of 3500- 4000 individuals down to just several hundred with just a few dozen being responsible for 90% of all fish exported to the west. With disease issues now, fewer and fewer fish are bought from small breeders by the big breeders and this further consolidates the hold by the big koi mills and syndicates that now dominate export numbers.

    Fortunately the amateur koi show has not changed. And it represents the line in the sand as to which fish are worthy of being called the best. Without breeders we have no fish. Without innovator's we have no advancement. Without objective critics we have no standards and no credibility. In a word, the system needs feedback to advance.

    In summary, the road to the best is not a straight marketing line. It is a dance between producer, consumer and amateur judging standard. Long live the dance. JR

  10. #10
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    I would add to JR's thoughtful essay that koi judges are not interchangeable. The consensus view of ZNA-trained judges is not necessarily the same as the consensus view of judges trained under the BKKS, AKCA or SAK programs. When addressing koi 'on the edge', such as this Nogyosai showanke, I do not believe uniformity of opinion is assured. Of course, that is what makes this discussion interesting.

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