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Thread: Peter Waddington's ERIC - Endless River In Concrete

  1. #121
    Nisai
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
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    78

    Having read all this

    I agree with Luke, video proof is all that is needed here as the rest is well established. The cleaning of the brushes is the key here. Proof not words eh?

  2. #122
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by waddy View Post
    C. I considered that the brushes were held very tightly in place and could be lifted out in seconds as a single block to reveal no debris below. I then considered the incoming rush of water from the superbly-designed transfer wall from the next stage which would backwash them incredibly well especially when I considered the exit water being taken away via the incredible power of a 4” bore drain which is 12.57 sq. inches in area as opposed to a 2” waste ‘trickle’ which is only 3.14 sq. inches in area. I then considered the 10-second per day discharge recommended and the fact that only 22 gallons of water are in that stage in the first place. After that I also considered that the box could be turned and replaced in every position possible and replaced in seconds.

    ????????????
    Short, sweet..........

    Waddy.
    yeah?
    I mean NO.
    ..." lifted out in seconds" yeah let me see here...what's a definition for a minute..and for an hour and for a day???????????????
    they are all seconds
    "seconds" ?
    the devil is in the details???

    and there are the vexing questions....
    How does 22 gallons of undirected, and under-pressured water clean those brushes that quickly?
    and one last little concern? The incoming water washes the brushes of their mulm, well if the chambers adorable 4 inch diameter outlet is closed before the water is allowed back into the chamber and wash the mulm of those brushes, Where does that Mulm go?
    You already claim that in your above "short" explanation that it is not under the filter brushes. And if the bore hole is still open you will oose considerably more than 22 gallons.


    you have created more questions....and not an answer.

  3. #123
    Daihonmei
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    and as to this video being so hard to produce....
    all your claims state the easy and quickness that a brush chamber can be cleaned...
    it should be a 1 minute video...or less..well as much as you like to talk i imagine it will be longer...much longer..and for no good reason

  4. #124
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    Two replies in one

    To hacnp

    'the rest is well-established'
    pleased explain, do you mean
    'Yes I understand that upward-flow cannot work'
    or
    'Horizontal-flow is well established'
    if it's the latter - do you have experience with this system?

    To both, you are asking me when to flush a lavatory. That's fine but first I need information from you - naturally, because I need to know about your situation as I am not a mind reader and all systems are different.
    Now unless we agree here we are in difficulty.

    Has your lavatory been used today? If not, it does not need flushing.
    Sorry to sound basic but that's a fact.
    After this we go into realms of the volume of water that single drain is handling (top max - 5,000 gallons) and then we can calculate the flow rate employed.
    Next we need to know how many Koi are in the pond.
    temperature
    feeding rate
    type of food
    All these and more determines how much waste will be taken into the lavatory.
    Do we still agree?
    So, in truth, there is a different answer for every different pond in the world.

    In order to give an indication as to when the lavatory needs flushing, I have therefore GENERALISED. (Wrong I know)

    I have stated that even in a warm pond with high stocking and feeding rates. There will not be a vast amount from a single drain IN ANY 24 HOUR PERIOD. That is worst case scenario.

    So I suggest a 10 second lift of the standpipe every day as a 'generalisation'.

    Now, consider this. In the same scenario there is no problem at all in lifting the standpipe once a day, placing it to stop the drain and wait 25 seconds to see the mechanical stage completely empty and the next stage half full. 78 gallons have gone instead of 22.

    There is no problem at all in doing this BUT it may not be necessary at all!

    Only the user can determine this with his own system.

    You both wish to see a video 'to prove' this.

    OK, please give me FULL details of the above information for me to simulate what you wish me to prove because unless you give me what you need to see, I cannot simulate it.

    Once again, I need:-
    Pond volume
    water temperature
    stocking rate
    food fed
    type of food

    OR

    If I do a shot of any pond to show this, chances are that you'll come back and say - OK, that's not what I wished to see, show me how it works with heavier stocking rates???

    Then I would increase the 10 seconds to say, 18 seconds?

    I'd need 5,000 videos before we all admitted that every pond is unique and it's foolish to generalise.

    Are we getting anywhere?

    The beauty of the brush box is that you can see with your own eyes what's going on - nothing is hidden but that daily flush IS a good yardstick to try and dispose of what should not be there.

    One thing is certain, I want ALL the waste out of that box.

    Are we any nearer - at all?

    Waddy.

  5. #125
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Peter's selling a 'new & improved' version of a time tested filtration system. Good for him! I wish him all the success in the world.

    As JR has explained, the underlying approach (which has been around for many, many years) is a sound one.

    And since 'new & improved' has been used to hype everything from mouse traps to toothpaste to toilet cleansers, there's no problem with Waddy's tweek and spin.

    But I think we ought to draw the line at claims of superiority that aren't based on long term experience by independent sources qualified to make such comparisons.

    After all, there's a lot more involved in such claims than 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and 0 nitrate at the end of the day.

    Caveat Emptor!

    Now while there may not be 'one best way' I'm willing to bet most of the experienced folks on this board will agree that some ways are better than others.

    That being the case, I'd like to mention a few:

    * Rely on brushes for mechanical filtration? Not.
    * Since wet bio-conversion and wet/dry bio-conversion each have their own fringe benefits (over and above completing the nitrogen cycle), advanced hobbyists should employ versions of both (e.g.: baki & nexus, TT & upflow Jmat, Clarity and long throw Matala, etc.) on their ponds.
    * Since filtration and water changes, alone, cannot get rid of docs the way a foam fractionator/protein skimmer can, advanced hobbyists should consider adding one (e.g.: Febi, Clarity, etc.) on their ponds.

    Hopefully this will help some of the Lookie Lous cut through the torrents of banter and BS.

    Now back to regular programming.
    Don Chandler
    Member: AKCA, ZNA, KoiUSA

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoiCop View Post
    Peter's selling a 'new & improved' version of a time tested filtration system. Good for him! I wish him all the success in the world.

    As JR has explained, the underlying approach (which has been around for many, many years) is a sound one.

    And since 'new & improved' has been used to hype everything from mouse traps to toothpaste to toilet cleansers, there's no problem with Waddy's tweek and spin.

    But I think we ought to draw the line at claims of superiority that aren't based on long term experience by independent sources qualified to make such comparisons.

    After all, there's a lot more involved in such claims than 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and 0 nitrate at the end of the day.

    Caveat Emptor!

    Now while there may not be 'one best way' I'm willing to bet most of the experienced folks on this board will agree that some ways are better than others.

    That being the case, I'd like to mention a few:

    * Rely on brushes for mechanical filtration? Not.
    * Since wet bio-conversion and wet/dry bio-conversion each have their own fringe benefits (over and above completing the nitrogen cycle), advanced hobbyists should employ versions of both (e.g.: baki & nexus, TT & upflow Jmat, Clarity and long throw Matala, etc.) on their ponds.
    * Since filtration and water changes, alone, cannot get rid of docs the way a foam fractionator/protein skimmer can, advanced hobbyists should consider adding one (e.g.: Febi, Clarity, etc.) on their ponds.

    Hopefully this will help some of the Lookie Lous cut through the torrents of banter and BS.

    Now back to regular programming.
    Well said that man, let's all have a mix of everything in the world - why not buy two of each!

    Have a few extras in reserve, just in case though to hedge the bets.

    One of 'em HAS to work.

    Throw enough S*** against the wall
    and
    Some of it will stick!
    Hopefully.

    Advanced hobbyists?

    Great advice to the newcomers!

    Waddy.

  7. #127
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waddy View Post
    Well said that man, let's all have a mix of everything in the world - why not buy two of each!

    Have a few extras in reserve, just in case though to hedge the bets.

    One of 'em HAS to work.

    Throw enough S*** against the wall
    and
    Some of it will stick!
    Hopefully.

    Advanced hobbyists?

    Great advice to the newcomers!

    Waddy.
    We have a saying over here: The Best Defense is a Good Offense.

    Judging by your response to my post you're intimately familiar with it.

    Unfortunately, your style --combined with your One Best Way approach to filtration -- is going to lead to fewer and fewer sales, not to mention fewer and fewer friends and admirers.

    I know it's had that effect on me.

    Best wishes,

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoiCop View Post
    We have a saying over here: The Best Defense is a Good Offense.

    Judging by your response to my post you're intimately familiar with it.

    Unfortunately, your style --combined with your One Best Way approach to filtration -- is going to lead to fewer and fewer sales, not to mention fewer and fewer friends and admirers.

    I know it's had that effect on me.

    Best wishes,
    Touche Sir, you are correct in what you say of me.

    There are many ways to filter a Koi pond.

    One of them is the right way.

    I'll stick with that one.

    If you glance at the website you will see I have no filters to sell. They are all made to order.

    Thank you,

    Waddy.

  9. #129
    Nisai
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
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    78

    Blah Blah Blah

    Ammonia conversion is what I am referring to as well established. Your claim as to mechanical filtration, specifically maintenance is what I am intrested in. The rest is not news. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

    If you cannot back the claims about the situation at the front of the box who is going to bother with the rest of it?

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by hacnp View Post
    Ammonia conversion is what I am referring to as well established. Your claim as to mechanical filtration, specifically maintenance is what I am intrested in. The rest is not news. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

    If you cannot back the claims about the situation at the front of the box who is going to bother with the rest of it?
    Oh dear, I try to explain about a mechanical stage and I get 'blah blah blah' back in my face.

    You keep telling me about 'dated this' and 'dated that' and yet you cannot even begin to accept one very important point and until you consider that point we cannot even start.

    By explaining why my system is so very efficient I have to explain the shortcomings of others - I am not 'knocking' them but I am voicing doubts as to the serious aspect of stagnation that applies to ALL upward-flow boxes and I will mention hikui again.

    In doing this I have ruffled feathers and rattled cages which then leads to terms such as dated etc. when really it's the upward-flow boxes that are so incredibly dated beyond belief.

    What i am attempting to explain, and I had no idea it would raise so many hackles, has nothing at all to do with Koi keeping - it is purely a well-known fact in basic plumbing.

    By pointing this simple fact out I have alienated some readers but I cannot change the natural flow of water in these situations and nor can any amount of aeration in these examples. Yes, if the box sides were permanently pressure-jetted all around with incoming pressurised water it would make some improvements to the coverage of the surfaces but not nearly as efficient as it is in the boxes I am speaking about.

    I would also like to cover ammonia conversion especially in the blocks I am recommending because I have no doubt at all as to the enormous efficiency of these new surfaces. Again, I know of no other media I can employ in this flow situation that can even come close.

    But few will even listen to this until they accept the plumbing thing first - and by the response so far, this seem unlikely to happen.

    And so the 'dated' cries will follow when I know different viewpoint.

    And of all the ways to skin a cat - put me down for the best way please.

    Waddy.

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