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Thread: Peter Waddington's ERIC - Endless River In Concrete

  1. #1
    Oyagoi Lam Nguyen's Avatar
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    Peter Waddington's ERIC - Endless River In Concrete

    I thought I remember reading a thread on KB about Peter Waddington's Endless River In Concrete (ERIC) filtration system but can't seem to find that thread, so thought I would start a new thread for further discussion. Before I proceed, here is a link to his ERIC filtration system and his rationale behind its efficacy:

    ERIC - THE ENDLESS RIVER

    Please note that by including the link to his filtration system, I am not promoting/marketing it in any way and neither am I criticizing its effectiveness as a complete filtration system. Rather, I am simply linking it for further discussion and your guys' opinion on its efficacy. What do you guys think of this type of filtration? I find a lot of things that he posted very hard to digest and lacking in scientific evidence (such as a bakki shower providing only approx 33% efficient - meaning only 33% of surface media gets in contact with water). Furthermore, what is it about his ERIC system that is different from other shorter horizontal flow systems?

    I have always been under the belief that Bakki showers w/ BHM or other porous media is the best type of filtration d/t its rich oxygenation and degassing effect (no not the FIR effect). As far as submerged media is concern, my understanding is the upward flow is much better so that we can aerate the bottom and water can then pass evenly along the cartridged Jmats. Also, how can the ERIC system be an effective system when we can't even oxygenate the media for maximal aerobic bacteria efficacy? After reading the contents on his website, I am one Lost Lam.

    I know that gspotmc Michael remodeled his system with a filtration system similar to the ERIC system. Perhaps he can chime in and share with us how effective he thinks that system is. I thought that the horizontal longthrow type of filtration system has been outdated with the fluidized bed and bakki showers/trickle towers. Anyways, any thought on ERIC is much appreciated.

  2. #2
    MCA
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    Honmei MCA's Avatar
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    Furthermore, what is it about his ERIC system that is different from other shorter horizontal flow systems?
    Ask Peter and let us know. I fail to see anything new it it.

  3. #3
    Oyagoi Lam Nguyen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCA View Post
    Ask Peter and let us know. I fail to see anything new it it.
    Thanks Michael, but I am going to refrain myself from asking Peter because doing so will make me one Lost & Messed Up Lam. I am just afraid that we are all missing something since we all know that Michael Hernandez was the main designer of Michael Chua's longthrow Jmat filtration system, many Japanese breeders still using this type of filtration, and Purdin uses only this type of filtration system for their River concrete ponds. And, if memory serves me right, Purdin doesn't aerate their filtration chamber either. Is there something that we are missing?

  4. #4
    Daihonmei
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    I sure would appreciate the personalities to forget about the personalities and consider and discuss the facts about the old raceway filters.
    I would especially appreciate to see as many pics as possible with the discussion. I've got many of the accoutrements 186 of JR's black knight filter brushes 4000 yds of black strapping, 15 cuft of pvc shavings 24 cuft of lava rock in a Porous media shower above the raceway.
    I've got a few ideas, and this Wednesday I have my last Post-op meeting with the surgeon that did my hand so I should be able to play without limitation..although it still hurts. And the weather won't get any better than it is now.
    So if you got some pics from anywhere from anytime even if they aren't perfect I'd really appreciate seeing them. And if you've had discussions with people that have these systems if you'd share in detail how they have done what they have done and what worked and just as importantly what did not work, or if you have such a system you'd provide a first person insight.
    Well I'd be grateful...and maybe someone you'd actually like to help would be too.

  5. #5
    Tategoi Erns's Avatar
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    Some interesting stuff here:

    2009 Pond From Start To Finish - KoiKichi

    I'm planning a new house and pond - lot's of these ideas will be going into that pond..

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    Oyagoi Lam Nguyen's Avatar
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    Thanks for the link Erns. That was a very good read. There are several points I find very interesting:

    1. Filtration size. If my calculation is correct, then a 60 ton pond is equivalent to 13,200 British gallons (1ton/220gallons) or 15,800 US gallons (1ton/264gallons). This is a pretty good sized pond that is only filtered by three small ERIC filtration systems?! Look at the size of those Jmat cartridges. They are only 20" high and there are only about 18 of those cartridges for the whole pond. And I believe he mentioned a slow rate of 1,800 gph to each ERIC. This is only a total of 5,400 gallons going through biological filtration, giving it approx 2.5 hours for one pond turnover. Scary if you ask me.

    2. Jmat cartridges - I notice that the Jmats are stacked horizontally versus vertically. I know of a couple of hobbyists and a breeder who stacks them vertically. Also, I don't see any spacing between the Jmats.

    3. Ground level pond versus a raised pond. I guess it's a matter of personal preference. Me myself, I prefer a raised pond that is about 18-24" above ground for several reasons: can sit on edge of pond to view koi, don't have to kneel down or bend over to feed koi, makes netting/bowling/handling koi much easier, and I have small children. Perhaps the most ideal is the back of the pond is ground level for landscaping while the front of the pond is raised.

    4. Pond depth - I notice that most of the British ponds (at least the ones I have encounted) are only about 2meters in depth. This is approx 6.7' deep. I find this interesting since most of the serious hobbyists in the US are considering a depth of 8-10' with some going as deep as 12'. Does depth really matter?!

    5. One-way water circulation - Peter mentioned clockwise water rotation only with no alternative for counter-clockwise rotation. Is it a myth that rotating water just one way may cause bends in koi backbone structure? Just curious is all.

    Other than the points discussed above, I notice that other proper pond build principles are in check. The pond has a steep vertical slope with a slight 5" slope on the bottom floor for proper debris movement to ABDs. No protrusion or sharp edges (other than stone edge) that may cause injury to koi. One drain to one filter to one pump. Gravity fed principle. Covered filter pit. Excellent landscaping (check out the stone work!).

    What about Totorri Onishi River System pond design? Has Peter given this type of system consideration. I have read up on this system quite a bit, including the airlift system to remove debris, and find it very interesting. I, too, have been looking for ideas for my next pond build, so thanks for the great link Erns.

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    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    As always, Waddington spends more time knocking everyone else than giving a concise description of the ERIC he is promoting. It seems to me to be a different version of the multi-stage filters of the past. There is nothing wrong with these filters. They have proved themselves over the years. The key to successful operation is in maintenance. Waddington relies on brushes for mechanical entrapment. This requires more maintenance time & effort than if preceded by a settlement chamber. I find this a negative, and am surprised he continues to promote this design when he was such an effective promoter of settlement chambers for so long. In any event, it looks like a good filter for the type.

    Lam: When Waddington speaks of 33% efficiency for a Bakki Shower, he does not seem to suggest that there is only 33% nitrification. He is saying that only 33% of the media surface is being continually engaged with the water. In other words, it takes a lot of media.

    In terms of efficiency, I do not think one can do better than a k-1 moving bed, both in use of media surface and nitrification. Plus, the moving bed design uses a smaller footprint. Of course, it also needs a mechanical pre-filter (like the Bakki) to really do it's stuff. I think I'd want a separate mechanical filter before the ERIC also.

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    Oyagoi Lam Nguyen's Avatar
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    Urghh.....my lengthy post got wiped out again when KB asked me to log on.

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    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lam Nguyen View Post
    Thanks Michael, but I am going to refrain myself from asking Peter because doing so will make me one Lost & Messed Up Lam. I am just afraid that we are all missing something since we all know that Michael Hernandez was the main designer of Michael Chua's longthrow Jmat filtration system, many Japanese breeders still using this type of filtration, and Purdin uses only this type of filtration system for their River concrete ponds. And, if memory serves me right, Purdin doesn't aerate their filtration chamber either. Is there something that we are missing?
    How much flow is Prudin running threw their system?

  10. #10
    Oyagoi Lam Nguyen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aquitori View Post
    How much flow is Prudin running threw their system?
    Hi Toni, to be honest, I am not sure and never bothered asking. All as I know is they use whole 4'x8'x2" Jmat sheets stacked vertically with a 4'x8' plastic roofing sheet in between the Jmat sheets. I have pictures that I would like to post but would like to request permission from Bill and Scott first. It amazes me that this is the only type of filtration that Purdin is using on their male and female Sakai-modified Atori Onishi River system. Let me try and ask either Dick, Bill, or Scott for you.

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