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Thread: Merry X-Mas to me

  1. #31
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    I remember seeing a Dainichi Showa that Kevin brought in 2003, the showa was 31" or so, massive girth, heavy old style pattern....But I think at that time the fish was already 12+ years old and showed it's age, which you could see in the condition of the shiroji or what you could see of it....but what striked me the most was the size of the hump, it had a massive hump with big shoulders.....it looked like short body builder, kind of freaky looking.

    I am in agreement that the Showa will probably top off at 29" at best and maybe just maybe 30" under the BEST conditions for growing.

    Tony
    The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

  2. #32
    Tategoi
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Luke I think you and headache are half right. This is a very classic Dainichi showa body. My buddy Kostie had one that could have passed for this one's big sister. Also a woman in Texas had two indentical bodied Dainichi showa in her collection that are very similar in body too this fish. The body is readily identifiable. These bodies tend to stay 'cobby' and bull dogish. As full adults they can appear a little too bulky in the shoulder for some's taste. But showa, as a concept, is all about the impression of power so the body works. As massive as the body is however, they usually don't break 30 inches. But they always show as 'bigger than they are' fish.
    In my opinion this fish will reach 28-29 inches, but will compete well against a 30-32 inch fish due to body line impression.
    So this fish is finished in terms of color but if the color holds as the fish grows the fish can be considered a tategoi and a 'teen' version of the classic big bodied Dainichi showa.
    The decline in this fish will be in the breaking of the sumi windows over time. Hopefully she will have a long run before that inevitable event.
    Love the fish! JR
    Jr. thanks for the input..... I have a question if I entered this fish in a show at 28-29 inch with all it's color in tact, how well do you think it will do with this type of body style? Will it be based on a judges taste or is this the type of body conformation you look for when judging a showa?
    I have not seen any big showa with this body style in any of the shows I've been too so I don't know how well she'll do in the shows.

    You've obviously seen alot more than me or anyone else here and your oppion is well respected throughout the hobby. Compare to a koi with very good skin, but smaller body on the attachment if both were the same size. Which one would be looked upon more as the better koi?

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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Merry X-Mas to me-img_3929.jpg  

  3. #33
    Daihonmei
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    Good Morning!

    Well, to just lay some ground work--

    small koi ( 6 inches to 18 inches) are mostly about color and pattern. In these sizes males compete well and we are really only looking for 'normal' conformation as there isn't a whole lot of difference between male and female ( not enough to put the amles completely out of the running, any way). Bright well patterned, well finished fish are generally the winners with a 'few expections to that rule' due to exceptional traits ( such as exceptional quality of skin or body).

    Fully adult koi ( over 26 inches) and right up to Jumbos ( 28- 36 inches) the criteria is flipped. In that case, body and quality take the lead. This does not mean that color and pattern are unimportant!! But just as we begin to not look so hard at conformation ( as long as it is normal) in small fish, we begin to move away from pattern in adult fish ( the pattern must still be a show pattern --- meaning balanced). This area is indeed subjective so the judge must have enough experience to really be able to SEE the fish for what it is ( quality, rarity, completion of all color etc) and not focus in on a pattern.

    In the case of your first fish posted - that showa at 28 inches needs to have held the sumi. Many of these type showa will start to get 'busy' in the shoulder area as windows open in the sumi ( this is an artistic all - some wonders just luckily look great if uniform and in an almost pattern, while others look bad- just messy). And also these fish tend to get hikkui at an age. So the challenge for the owner is to help the fish to 'keep it all together' until that point where they are 29 inches. Sometimes this takes 6- 8 years. And more often than not, the fish's color and pattern can't hold out that long, especially in very warm water.
    This is why many of the southern Japan show fish are illusions. They have been force grown using intensive growing technique so that they get to 30 inches at a very young age ( some as young as 4-5!). This insures that the skin and color are still youthful). But there is a price for this in terms of longevity. Most 30 inch fish in the North are older- 8-12 years. And only the best genetics can have color and pattern surviving at a peak that long. But when they are right, they are right! That Dainichi showa that won a few years back now was an exceptional fish!! The best I've seen in many years.
    What is the story on the fish you just posted. How old? Is it stuck in an unfinished stage or is it progressing? JR

  4. #34
    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    "Stuck in an Unfinished Stage" , Man that's a Thread I'd Love to Read .


    Please !

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Good Morning!

    Well, to just lay some ground work--

    small koi ( 6 inches to 18 inches) are mostly about color and pattern. In these sizes males compete well and we are really only looking for 'normal' conformation as there isn't a whole lot of difference between male and female ( not enough to put the amles completely out of the running, any way). Bright well patterned, well finished fish are generally the winners with a 'few expections to that rule' due to exceptional traits ( such as exceptional quality of skin or body).

    Fully adult koi ( over 26 inches) and right up to Jumbos ( 28- 36 inches) the criteria is flipped. In that case, body and quality take the lead. This does not mean that color and pattern are unimportant!! But just as we begin to not look so hard at conformation ( as long as it is normal) in small fish, we begin to move away from pattern in adult fish ( the pattern must still be a show pattern --- meaning balanced). This area is indeed subjective so the judge must have enough experience to really be able to SEE the fish for what it is ( quality, rarity, completion of all color etc) and not focus in on a pattern.

    In the case of your first fish posted - that showa at 28 inches needs to have held the sumi. Many of these type showa will start to get 'busy' in the shoulder area as windows open in the sumi ( this is an artistic all - some wonders just luckily look great if uniform and in an almost pattern, while others look bad- just messy). And also these fish tend to get hikkui at an age. So the challenge for the owner is to help the fish to 'keep it all together' until that point where they are 29 inches. Sometimes this takes 6- 8 years. And more often than not, the fish's color and pattern can't hold out that long, especially in very warm water.
    This is why many of the southern Japan show fish are illusions. They have been force grown using intensive growing technique so that they get to 30 inches at a very young age ( some as young as 4-5!). This insures that the skin and color are still youthful). But there is a price for this in terms of longevity. Most 30 inch fish in the North are older- 8-12 years. And only the best genetics can have color and pattern surviving at a peak that long. But when they are right, they are right! That Dainichi showa that won a few years back now was an exceptional fish!! The best I've seen in many years.
    What is the story on the fish you just posted. How old? Is it stuck in an unfinished stage or is it progressing? JR
    Hi Jr.
    Again thanks for the reply and the great explaination on judging fish.

    The koi I posted for comparison is a Dainichi Sansai, but with a different bloodline to the one I own. I don't believe it stuck on an unfinished stage due to it's young age...
    I believe it's still progressing and has a few more years to get better. I only posted this koi because I was trying show comparison on Dainichi bloodline....
    This koi definately has an outstanding skin quality, but doesn't have the hefty body as the other one does. I was asking if both fish were entered with the same size and both have the same quality as on the pictures today would the koi with the bigger body have the advantage over the one with good skin? Thanks again JR.


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