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Thread: Query: How do Shiro Utsuri yellow fry develop?

  1. #1
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Query: How do Shiro Utsuri yellow fry develop?

    When breeding Shiro Utsuri, the first cull is to eliminate all the yellow/clear fry (and obvious deformities) and keep only the black fry, as is done in Showa. How would the discarded fry develop? Would they still have black pigment? Would the sumi wrap? Do any of these fry develop as shiromuji?

  2. #2
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Martin De Jong kept some yellow fry back in a few of his breeding experiments and did an impressive job of tracking their development. I haven't looked for updates from him lately but he had some impressive photo-tracking going on at least 2 years worth of fry going over at N.I.

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    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    Sorry Mike, in all my breeding involvement I've never hung on to anything
    that didn't follow the tradition methods of sembetsu. I've hung onto shiros that had different body shapes, were cage when everyone else had solid black full up patterns. Even shiro muji when most others had some sumi showing.





    Good question, sorry no answer....would be curious as to why you asked

  4. #4
    Jumbo
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    "Would they still have black pigment? Would the sumi wrap? Do any of these fry develop as shiromuji?"

    Hi Mike,... yes, yes, and yes to your questions,... on some. These fry will develop into many colors of carp,... crap,... spilled Skittles - the same as Showa culls really,... some Benigoi, some shiro muji, lots of splattery speckled black on yellow, black on orange (Aka Bekko), black on white even (poor Shiro Bekko),... and some Kohakus, Chagoi-ish Groromo-ish, Ochiba-ish, Sanke-ish colored carp,... and depending on the family tree of the breeder's oyagoi possibly even some very fine modern Shiro Bekko and Aka Bekko, Sanke, Ki Bekko. The baseline mismash is the same for many breeds of Koi though.

    Best Wishes,
    Brady Brandwood


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    Daihonmei
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    brady,
    YOU BASS TURD!

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    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Thanks, Brady.

    Follow-up question: Do the shiromuji have the yellowish head typical of shiromuji, or do some possess the solid white head seen on good shiro utsuri?

    Dick: Looking at the video of jumbo koi at Marusei several days ago, I began thinking that a shiromuji was needed to complete the picture, but they are generally too unattractive. Then Junichi posted a link to Omosako video showing newly harvested Shiro Utsuri in a transport box. One of them had sumi only on the lower flank and in some poses appeared to be a shiromuji... and quite an impressive snow white at that. Shiromuji are typically rather dull and dirty due to a yellowish cast on the head, if not over the whole body. So, I began thinking about how benigoi are not very desirable, but an occasional specimen can be quite impressive, which led me to thinking about what would be the best genetic base for getting a true white....and that in turn made me wonder about all the shiro utsuri culls nobody bothers to raise. (Except, of course, Brady is curious enough about such things that he has expended space to see for himself.) It is conceivable in my imagination that there could be a truly beautiful shiromuji produced, and I'm thinking it would have to come out of utsuri genetics, not kohaku or sanke. But, the resources that would have to be devoted to such a project make it pure fantasy. Nonetheless, imagine the pure, solid white of the best Omosako shiro with no black except the iris of each eye. Place it in a pond of single-color koi, and I think it would be the center of attention. Might even highlight many shortcomings in a pond of Kohaku.

  7. #7
    Jumbo
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    Luke,... light a candle and give us a courtesy flush!

    Mike it would depend on the specific parent set,... but also most truly high class Koi come from specific molds,... so to get a Shiro Muji with truly exceptional skin would be difficult,... as there really have not been any high class molds cast for that 'type' of Koi. For example,... a Shiro Muji from a Kohaku spawn isn't just a Kohaku with no red patterning,... in most cases. In most cases a Shiro Muji is a white carp that hasn't taken the high quality genetic code that its siblings have taken,... which will include a high class skin, body type, and color quality (white). A high class Shiro Muji would likely have a small area of sumi somewhere on the body, or a small area of hi patterning somewhere on the body,... just as many high class MODERN Shiro Utsuris tend to have a sprinkle of hi somewhere on the body. Though as the Shiro Utsuri mold has been improved over the past 10 years we see less of this happening. Shiro Muji would need to be brought forward like that also.

    Best Wishes,
    Brady Brandwood

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    Daihonmei
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    <--lights candle and changes his drawers...

    BRADY WHERE THE HELL WAS THAT ONE WHEN I WAS UP YER WAY?

  9. #9
    Daihonmei
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    i would have found something to trade you...perhaps Mickey?

  10. #10
    Oyagoi Ethan25's Avatar
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    This is quite interesting. If I may add one quick thing, I for two years was breeding ryukin....some who collect very high end ones were fairly impressed with what I bred surprisingly...and I ended up with four or five shiro muji ryukin...

    The thing is, all of them developed some sumi, somewhere on the body. I think the chances of finding a nice shiro muji with a white head....not having that clear look or off white look to it would be like a needle in a haystack.

    I have thought of that before Mike, regarding having a nice large all white koi in the pond.... But everything I have seen has been of lower quality skin and body wise.
    The views I have are completely representative of who I am, and may/may not be representative of clubs I may or may not be a part of.

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