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Thread: Breeding and culling kumonryu at home

  1. #1
    Nisai quinton.jones@carat.com's Avatar
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    Breeding and culling kumonryu at home

    I have been dabbling with spawing koi in my backyard - after keeping koi for about 6 years I had never attempted this. This year feeling a little daring and sure that I would at least get something worthwhile from the spawning I set about spawning a Matsakawabake male with a Kumonryu female - Naturally I expected mostly both of the above. I have about 100 fry at 2cm now and have no idea how to proceed with culling. Ideally I only want Kumonryu - but i seem to have some that look olive green and aothers that are looking yellow and black (not sure if the yellow becomes beni?)and others that are almost completely black except for a yellow nose. (not sure if this is red). You will see from the pic (yes not great clarity I know) that there are plenty of mosquito larvae in the bowl -they have been growing very well on this and are just under a month old - not bad for a portapool in the backyard. Anyone have advice that will help me bring the numbers down.

    Quinton
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Breeding and culling kumonryu at home-26122009220.jpg  

  2. #2
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    you'll need to separate the bigger ones off by themselves or they will help themselves to thier smaller siblings.

    you should be able to discern quickly the wagoi from the douitsu. I would suspect a stronger influence of wagoi because of your male. But keep a few of the matsukawabake.


    I did the same as you a few years back. Except My male was kumonryu and I bred for matsukawabake's. My #2 Kumonryu took Reserve GC in a young fish show it's second year, so don't be too hasty!

    You want to hang on to the black ones. There could be beni in the yellow ones if the Kumonryu has a beni kumonryu in it's background. Hang on to one or two oddballs and see what develops......

    I'm raising a sanke from a showa breeding, because it shows promise in body shape and quality. You just never know. have fun
    Dick Benbow

  3. #3
    Nisai quinton.jones@carat.com's Avatar
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    kumonryu

    Thanks Dick appreciate the advise - the pic is almost 2 weeks old and the biggies and smallies are seperate. Are the plain black ones likely to be kumonryu ? (if doits of course). Possible there was a beni in there somewhere - many seem olive green - what could that be?

    Quinton

  4. #4
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    April 2007 Nichirin,
    Quote "All Kumonryu fry usually look black just after hatching. At culls fry that are having a white part are selected and all-blacks are eliminated".

  5. #5
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    As many know this is my 3rd year culling matsukawabake. Mine are from a cross with goshiki in an attempt to rebuild the sumi base.

    In these there are 2 types of white produced. Some have a pinkish head. These are white based shiromuji with the brain showing through the thin skin and bone and are destined to stay that way. Then there are those with greyish head. These are black based with the brain showing through the thin skin and bone and are destined to become matsukawabake.

    In adulthood, the skull thickens and you can no longer see through the skull & therefore it is no possible to determine if the koi is white or black based.

    One tip when culling for beni kumonryu is to place the koi into a white tub first in order to have the sumi fade. This way, any beni that is hidden below the sumi will be more visible. I also use this same approach when culling for showa & other black based koi, in order to see any kohaku pattern that might be hidden below the sumi.

    Here is one of my matsukawabake that I have posted before to show how much the pattern change during the first year. This one was spawned in October 2007. The left photo was taken in February, the middle in August and the last in September of 2008. You can see what I mean in the middle picture, how the brain is showing through the skull revealing the brain.




    Here is another, I have posted before. I will post more at the end of our growing season.


  6. #6
    Nisai quinton.jones@carat.com's Avatar
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    Kumonryu

    Hi All
    After returning from my holiday I have now seen that the bulk of koi from this spawing are wagoi? not sure if the matsukawabake needs to be split for doits to get kumonryus with a kumonryu female? Here is a little twist lots of the fry are definately ochibas!! - how on earth? (will post some pics tomorrow)

  7. #7
    Nisai quinton.jones@carat.com's Avatar
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    Some pics





    The beast 4cm
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Breeding and culling kumonryu at home-07012010236.jpg   Breeding and culling kumonryu at home-07012010237.jpg   Breeding and culling kumonryu at home-07012010238.jpg   Breeding and culling kumonryu at home-07012010242.jpg   Breeding and culling kumonryu at home-07012010243.jpg  

    Breeding and culling kumonryu at home-07012010249.jpg  

  8. #8
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    There are two lines of Kumonryu that have evolved in Japan. One from the north and one from the south.

    One line the white shows readily in the first few culls. In the other one, about the time of the second or third cull, a small white area on the forehead and immediately behind the head opens just before the hump and stays that way for thier first year. Over the next coupla years it gradually opens into the shoulder and then runs back toward the tail. So until you learn which is which in your genetics you might want to hang on to a few
    that are strongly black.

    regarding the different colors...green could be midori but I would rather think that Chagoi was used for the same reason Magoi is now.....to create a strong body, and in 4-5 generations the color variety can be re-established.

  9. #9
    Daihonmei
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    i know of a line that injapan that develops best when the ones that are almost completely white are most highly prized...as they get to 3-5 years old the black imcreases and you get a BIG kumonryu without an over-powering pattern.

  10. #10
    Nisai quinton.jones@carat.com's Avatar
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    A couple more pics

    Breeding and culling kumonryu at home-07012010251.jpg

    Breeding and culling kumonryu at home-07012010257.jpg

    Breeding and culling kumonryu at home-07012010260.jpg

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