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Thread: Pump it up!

  1. #1
    Tosai aussiemike's Avatar
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    Pump it up!

    OK,
    I have been hanging around these forums long enough now to ask my next silly question.
    I hope I have picked up enough of the terminology not to sound too stupid.
    We have no shops here where I am so I guess you guys are my only knowledge base.
    If anything does sound a little odd remember I am an Aussie.
    Apologies in advance and sorry about the Americas Cup, Mel Gibson and Paul Hogan.

    Before I can plan any further a couple of things I need to understand.
    I can then do further research before I am back again. TIA.

    If I have 10,000 gallons+ and have to get it to the top of my waterfall which is 30 meters away
    and 10 meters up a cliff what size pump should I start looking for?
    Please don't answer "Big"

    Are these pumps equipped with a flow control?
    ie Can I turn it up and down?

    I would also be extremely grateful if someone could put the items on the attached photo into sequential order.
    I am sure some elements would benefit from the gravity of the cliff.

    Please bear in mind all I wish to have is clean water and a few Tilapia to attract those horrible Herons.


    Regards from Kenya
    Aussiemike
    Last edited by aussiemike; 01-06-2010 at 07:00 AM. Reason: picture too big

  2. #2
    MCA
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    Honmei MCA's Avatar
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    Mike,

    Things that limit the flow of water from a pump:

    The backpressure caused by raising the water from the pump's elevation. In this case you are saying 10 meters (~30 feet) up.

    The backpressure caused by the pipe size and the fittings. The small the pipe...the more more backpressure for a given length of pipe. Larger (diameter) is better. And the number and type of fittings, especially ones like 90 degree elbows add extra backpressure. You want to change the water's direction as little as possible. So pipelay is important.


    So we would need to work backwards to pick the right pump. First thing...what is the desired flow in lph or gph? I would think you would want at least 3000gph. And we want that 3000gph at 40' of head pressure (30' from elevation change and I just added in 10' head pressure from pipe and fittings).

    So now you need to go to performance charts from different makes (Wave, Sequence, Evolution, Artsian Pro) and start to see if they even list backpressures as high as 40'....and if so....what is the flow rate. I can imagine we definitely talking pumps above 1HP.

    So yes, BIG pumps and likely needing to use at least 4" pipe to the top of the waterfall to minimize pipe and fitting backpressure.
    Koi keeping is not a belief system; it is applied science with a touch of artistry.

  3. #3
    Tosai aussiemike's Avatar
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    MCA, Thanks, gives me somewhere to start.
    Are these pumps adjustable or are they just on and off?

  4. #4
    Jumbo l113892's Avatar
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    You can reduce the out flow of the pump with a valve on the discharge side of the pump but with the head loss you are going to experience pumping water out and up 30 feet, I doubt you will want to do that.

  5. #5
    Meg
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    Oyagoi Meg's Avatar
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    MCA do you think it would work to pump up to and through a couple of small 'holding' ponds along the way up to the top to help with that back pressure?
    would a couple smaller pumps be better cost than one larger one? ?? maybe not?

    Mike if you are doing this for the birds/wildlife do a sloping edge to the pond so they can wade in. attracting foul you may never keep on top of things to have clean waters but time will tell.
    I think I would do bottom drains > vortex > top of hill > large showers > waterfalls.

    I'll be catching my herons to send your way as you are most welcome to them

  6. #6
    MCA
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    I just glanced at the performance charts for the Dragon pumps from Wlim. The largest listed is 2 HP. That could barely deliver ~2000gph at 30' heard pressure....which is only your elevation change....with no additional pressure from pipe and fittings. They do customer make larger pumps on custom order. So I am guessing you would need at least 2.5HP pumps from any maker. Those get to be serious cost in capex (cash up front) and opex (electricity).

    The way to adjust the flow is to purchase a pump larger than you need. The you use a ball valve on the output to dial in the extra backpressure needed to get the desired flowrate. From what I have seen of two speed pumps (low speed for normal operation with high speed to backwash a bead filter), they are not nearly as efficient compared to a single speed pump.

  7. #7
    MCA
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    Meg,

    That could be done. That is probably higher total capex for the several pumps, fittings and mid point ponds. Also all those pumps have to running at precisely the same flow rates or long term....some ponds would overflow while others run dry.

  8. #8
    MCA
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    One way to create a two speed water fall....use two pumps in parallel. Run one pump when you want a slower flow rate (and lower power consumption). Turn on the second pump with you want to pump it up. Alternate the duty cycles between the pumps.

  9. #9
    Tosai aussiemike's Avatar
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    I do like the idea of the pumps in parallel. Would both of them have to be rated for the head height or would both together reach the desired height.

    Just got this from a Malayasian company.

    Brand is Easy Pro


    What percentage below max head would be a safe bet?
    Thanks for all the help.

  10. #10
    Tosai aussiemike's Avatar
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    Dumb question???

    Is a 2HP pump running at half capacity consuming the same power as a 1HP pump running flat out??

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