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Thread: Combo'd Spring parasite treatments . . .

  1. #11
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    Well, about 7 years ago Tom Holder and Vicki Vaughan were working with Prazi dosing and found that Prazi dissolved in ProForm-C. So, Vicki used the two in combo and found that they worked better together than used separately. This was put up on KoiVet by Doc Johnson, resulting in innumerable folks using the combination. The only ill-effects I have seen reported involved overdosing the ProForm-C. Now, from a legal perspective, you don't think any manufacturer is going to say anything else, do you? ...unless the manufacturer produces both products and doesn't have competition in either, of course.
    OK, so this ancedotal "experiment without documented peer review or scientific controls is what you are basing your "widely accepted" statement on?
    On what basis was the determination made that they work better together? What studies wered done concerning any possible long term effects?

    Let me point something out. "Claims" of working better together leave me "highly" suspicious. Why? Because most parasite treatments such as Proform C, Salt, PP and others remove/disolve/oxidize protective coatings in order to get to the parasites themselevs. The prescribed treatments are based on documented, controlled, studies. Then someone gets the bright idea to do combo treatments and then make proclamations that these combo treatments are more "effective." While they may, the danger level is not studied nor documented and the safety margins from the original prescribed treatment are reduced. One such example that comes to mind is someones bright idea of adding salt to the original superverm treatement protocols saying that "it made it more effective."

    Without exception, every incident of superverm issues included the salt as part of the treatment. Yet no issues were ever documented utilizing the original treatment protocols. In addition, the only time that I am aware that the original treatment protocols were not effective was when Dr. J decided to supplement such using a carbon filter in the process. Well, Duh! Then he published his own treatment protocols calling for a supplemental second treatment. Guess what? People began having "issues"!

    Now, Let's get back to Profrom C and Prazi mixed. First of all, Proform C is a very diluted form of the original MG/F treatment protocols. Why? I would "guess" to add more of a safety margin into the process. Along this same vein, it also lessens the likelihood of a reaction if used in a pond with salt already present. Formalin + salt = very nasty result. In addition, there have been incidents regarding some forms of prazi as well (typically linked to either a liquid pre-mix or a generic, "cut" bulk version.

    Now, also as I recall, Proform C is used to disolve the Prazi. But, not at the rate of a full pond dose of Proform C couple with a full dose of Prazi. It was simply enough to disolve the Prazi. Big difference there!

    Mixing treatments has risks. Risks that can have severe consequences. I for one would be very leery of such and definitively wouldn't want to be the one recommending such to others. But hey, you can always do like Dr. J did. If their are "issues" simply go into denial and not even attempt to correct yourself. BTW, after years of hounding the good Dr. on the subject, he finally admitted his tests with Superverm were flawed. He even said that he would be willing to redo his tests.....providing someone funded it! Can you picture me with steam coming out of my ears at that point? LOL

    Steve
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  2. #12
    Oyagoi gcuss's Avatar
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    I used them together in the past, but simply as a mixer for my Prazi. I can't remember if I did the full dose of Proform C, or not...



    Grant
    Last edited by gcuss; 02-03-2010 at 11:32 AM. Reason: I didn't realize there was a page two to the thread and Steve more or less already refuted my post... LOL

  3. #13
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    I don't disagree with you on the fundamentals, Steve. And, I did not say the ProForm-C & Prazi combo is 'widely accepted'. I said it is 'pretty well established' that it does not cause ill-effects, which I think is both quite a bit different, and true. I also said I preferred not to use them in combination and generally avoid any treatment unless determined to be essential. Unlike the numerous reports of problems with Supaverm, there are very few reports of a problem with this combo, and all I have seen involved double and higher dosing with ProForm-C, which would be dangerous without the Prazi. So, I hope it is clear that I do not recommend the ProForm-C/Prazi combo and my preference would be a seriatim usage. At the same time, I am not aware of any instances where this combo caused any problem when properly dosed, and am aware that these treatments are combined with some significant frequency.

    In any event, the question asked and my response concerned Don's situation where this combo was applied after treatment with Dimilin. That triple combo is really an unknown. Although he noted that it was a done deal, if I thought he needed to do an emergency massive water change, I would have said so. With no indication of his koi behaving inappropriately, and no information in the resources available to me that the combination he used is dangerous to the koi, I gave my best guess that he would be OK based on the fact that Dimilin operates in a wholly different manner. I did say it was a 'guess'. I do not think it essential that he do a massive water change. I have not seen anyone urge him to do one.

    I think we are all hoping it turns out well for his koi. Nobody is recommending this course of treatment by anyone. If perchance I was in Don's situation, I would be observing my koi closely and would be prepared to do a massive water change if the koi displayed unusual or stressed behavior. My guess (note the word) is that they will be fine.

  4. #14
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcuss View Post
    Also Steve, I've read in numerous locations that suggest using Proform C to mix up your Prazi powder. They also suggest using vodka, but hey! The martini's are for me, not the koi. They can have the Proform!

    Grant
    Yep, I have heard that as well. But, again, if memory serves, the mix was with a "shot" of vodka. Depending on the dosing/size of pond, I doubt a shot of Proform C would matter. Now a full dose? I think I'll stay clear of that one.
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  5. #15
    Tosai
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    The protocol developed by Dr J and Vickie Vaughn calls for a full dose of Proform C (actually more than the label calls for as proform c is a weakened version of the formalin/mg ) to be mixed with the prazi. I have used on many ocasions both on my pond and in QT with no ill effects. You mix the prazi in on the last of three f/mg treatments. While I have not seen any "scientific" studies there are numerous "applied" studies where this protocol has been used. I don't advocate that any one else do this unless they are comfortable with the treatment, maybe test on a few before using with more valuable fish. Has worked well for me up till now...later...Gary

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by gelmore54 View Post
    The protocol developed by Dr J and Vickie Vaughn calls for a full dose of Proform C (actually more than the label calls for as proform c is a weakened version of the formalin/mg ) to be mixed with the prazi. I have used on many ocasions both on my pond and in QT with no ill effects. You mix the prazi in on the last of three f/mg treatments. While I have not seen any "scientific" studies there are numerous "applied" studies where this protocol has been used. I don't advocate that any one else do this unless they are comfortable with the treatment, maybe test on a few before using with more valuable fish. Has worked well for me up till now...later...Gary
    As I alluded to in post #11, I have fundemental issues with Dr. J and his "protocols."

    That being said, I did go to the Koi Care Kennel site and there is a chart as to mixing treatments. It actually states that the two work better together (but, that may be based on Dr. J's protocols). I still see fundemental flaws in that logic and would still not mix the two treatments. There were also many descrepancies in the information from the chart to the product labeling as well. I also see doing shotgunning as a practice as being flawed. It seems that it is becoming more and more acceptable to shot gun, without specific parasite identification and targeted treatments. There are so many possible issues in doing so that it is mind boggling. Hitting with two chemical treatments when one may be (in most cases likely) sufficient for the actual problem is fundementally wrong, especially as a practice when not taking into account the level of the problem itself. Take gill damage as an example. If the targeted treatment can do the trick why subject the koi to additional stressprts that might easily puch it over the edge? I can hear the logic now, "It was so far gone it would have died anyway." Really? Would it have?

    But hey, the marketing companies get to sell more product that way.
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  7. #17
    Tosai
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    I would agree about the shotgun method of treatment. I deal with a lot of fingerlings and tosai fresh out of the mud and almost all have flukes and on many ocasions tric as well. On those ocasions I will mix medications, prazi is to expensive to use unless needed and formalin is stressful under the best of cases. I try to treat fish as little as posible but somtimes it can not be helped. later...Gary

  8. #18
    Jumbo 111whalen's Avatar
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    What do you think of the temp? (57) My understanding was that below about 60 that most parasites are dormant and not laying eggs? Don hasn't replied yet; if there was a problem I believe it would be showing itself? Good luck Don!

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by gelmore54 View Post
    I would agree about the shotgun method of treatment. I deal with a lot of fingerlings and tosai fresh out of the mud and almost all have flukes and on many ocasions tric as well. On those ocasions I will mix medications, prazi is to expensive to use unless needed and formalin is stressful under the best of cases. I try to treat fish as little as posible but somtimes it can not be helped. later...Gary
    Gary,
    Koi fresh out of a mud pond and in bulk are very much different than what a typical hobbyists has to deal with. It is not uncommon for a breeder to do multiple treatments, in bulk on a fresh harvest. It is also not uncommon for those same fish to be treated again by a dealer who has purchased them (a short time later). By the time they get to a hobbyist, odds are if their is a problem, it is down to a specific parasite and to combo up on them a third time is even more risky. As the old saying goes, there is a time and place for everything. For a hobbyist, shotgunning should not typically be one of those times.
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  10. #20
    Tosai
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    Steve, The question was "is it safe to mix f/mg and prazi" I stated that I thought it was safe. I brought up the fish fresh from the mud only to show that I have had zero problems mixing the two meds. Whether or not it is appropriate for the average pond owner will have to be up to them and the answer will be different depending on each situation and what they are trying to accomplish. I agree wholheartedly that one should not just throw meds in a pond without a specific plan but I do not hesitate to use the tools I have when needed. To me the combo of f/mg and prazi is just another tool in the cabinet....later...Gary

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