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Thread: Combo'd Spring parasite treatments . . .

  1. #1
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Combo'd Spring parasite treatments . . .

    Dr. Rob Hildreth (our koi vet) stopped by Sunday and pulled an anchor worm off of one of our fish, so yesterday I treated the pond with Dimilin.

    This morning I saw several other fish flashing and since we hadn't treated the pond since last Spring, decided to broaden the treatment to include Proform-C and Prazi, too. Thought I might as well take advantage of having the Clarity turned off for a couple of weeks and the restricted water changes to get all three out of the way in one fell swoop.

    Soon after I did so, it came to me that maybe Dimilin shouldn't have been combo'd with the other two meds.

    Anyone here heard such? And if so, anyone know why that would be?

    Just curious (since it's too late now, short of aborting the treatments) . . .
    Don Chandler
    Member: AKCA, ZNA, KoiUSA

  2. #2
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    With snow still on the ground (again) its a bit premature for us to deal with those issues, but I'll be curious to hear what others have to say about broad spectrum treatments as well. We rarely treat our water for anything to speak of but knowing more is always good for the medicine chest just in case...

  3. #3
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Hiya Larry . . .

    Pond was 57 degrees this morning -- and Spring's right around the corner.

    First koi show's in two weeks in San Diego. Come on back out and enjoy the sunshine!

  4. #4
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    You have no idea how gooooooooooooooooooooood that sounds
    All this global warming stuff is about to freeze our asses off

  5. #5
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoiCop View Post
    Dr. Rob Hildreth (our koi vet) stopped by Sunday and pulled an anchor worm off of one of our fish, so yesterday I treated the pond with Dimlin.

    This morning I saw several other fish flashing and since we hadn't treated the pond since last Spring, decided to broaden the treatment to include Proform-C and Prazi, too. Thought I might as well take advantage of having the Clarity turned off for a couple of weeks and the restricted water changes to get all three out of the way in one fell swoop.

    Soon after I did so, it came to me that maybe Dimlin shouldn't have been combo'd with the other two meds.

    Anyone here heard such? And if so, anyone know why that would be?

    Just curious (since it's too late now, short of aborting the treatments) . . .
    OK Don, good news and bad news.The Bad news is : The Proform C label and I also believe the Prazi label state not to combine treatements with other treatments. Being one that is totally against shotgunning, especially without a positive diagnosis of specific parasites (other then the anchor worm). Undue stressors for unknown reasons.

    The good news: I have never heard of dimilin reacting with either of the other two meds and is also relatively safe depending on the dosage.

    You do have a scope, right?
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  6. #6
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    I offer this advice to newer koi keepers that are reading this thread.

    I do not reccomend treating for parasites unless you can confirm they are present and have identified what type are present by scraping and scoping. (Argulas and Lernia can be easily seen without a scope) Parasite treatments can and have damaged/killed koi and filter bacteria.

    However not everyone has adaquate skills with a microscope. I urge you to reach out to your local AKCA or ZNA koi club for instruction if you need to learn how to use a microscope correctly. If necessary to treat, it is critical to know the exact volume of water you are treating and measure the dosage perfectly. Many treatments have a very small amount of leeway between killing parasites (if present) and damaging/killing the koi. It is a toss up as to wheather more koi die from unnecessary treatments than from waiting until you can definately determine the cause of whatever symptoms you are seeing. If someone is trying to sell you a treatment for microscopic parasites that they claim is both safe and effective without advising a great deal of caution you should be very skeptical.

    If I fould mulitple types of parasites needing multiple treatments I would treat the most dangerous parasite with the best treatment before then moving the treat the next type, etc. I would not use multiple treatments in a shotgun approach at the same time. Also if you are finding parasites in your pond you should be reconsidering your quarantine regimen and/or where you are obtaining your koi.

    We have the responsibility to provide the best care/treatment possible for our koi. It is experience, education, and clear identification of the root cause of the problem that provides us with the best course of action. Your local koi club has experienced members that will be able to assist you build your skills.
    Disclosure:These opinions are based on my experience and conversations with persons I consider accomplished koi keepers and do not reflect the viewpoint of any organization.

  7. #7
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Don: I have checked all of my regular koi health books and find nothing saying either way about mixing Dimilin with anything else. Using ProForm-C and Prazi together is pretty well established as OK and effective as long as the dosage is accurate. I prefer not to use them together because they seem to irritate more together than when used seriatim. I have to say, however, that I try to avoid any treatment as much as I can. I get in a panic if anything seems wrong with my fish, but adding anything to the water is a last resort.

    My guess is that you'll be OK because Dimilin kills by inhibiting the development of insects/invertebrates. If it operated like an organo-phosphate, I think there would be a real risk mixing with a formalin product. However, I am wondering if the ProForm-C and Prazi were needed at all. Dimilin, like many treatments, can cause some irritation that leads to behaviors otherwise associated with various parasites.

    In any event, let us know how things progress. Are you applying 3 Dimilin treatments, as some recommend?

  8. #8
    Oyagoi
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    These three work in different ways.

    Dimilin is an IGR (Insect Growth Regulator) and as such is more of a hormone than a poison. It should not be problematic when mixed with other treatments.

    Proform C is a broad spectrum poison/teratogen and could be a problem when mixed with other stuff. However, if used according to directions I've found it to not be very toxic, but not very effective either.

    Praziquantel is an antihelminthic and some of these are quite toxic, this one isn't. It also could create problems if mixed with the wrong stuff.

    Proform C and Prazi can both poison your fish if incorrectly dosed. It would take a lot, a whole lot, of Dimilin to be toxic to fish.

    Like Steve C says, it is always best to have a diagnosis prior to treatment so the target organism is the one treated. In many cases the wrong treatment can aggravate a problem rather than help it.

    Brett
    Brett

  9. #9
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    Don: I have checked all of my regular koi health books and find nothing saying either way about mixing Dimilin with anything else. Using ProForm-C and Prazi together is pretty well established as OK and effective as long as the dosage is accurate. I prefer not to use them together because they seem to irritate more together than when used seriatim. I have to say, however, that I try to avoid any treatment as much as I can. I get in a panic if anything seems wrong with my fish, but adding anything to the water is a last resort.

    My guess is that you'll be OK because Dimilin kills by inhibiting the development of insects/invertebrates. If it operated like an organo-phosphate, I think there would be a real risk mixing with a formalin product. However, I am wondering if the ProForm-C and Prazi were needed at all. Dimilin, like many treatments, can cause some irritation that leads to behaviors otherwise associated with various parasites.

    In any event, let us know how things progress. Are you applying 3 Dimilin treatments, as some recommend?
    Mike,
    In the bolded section above, please inform me as to how this has been pretty well established? Especially in light of the manufacturers instructions as to not mixing treatements. Curious minds really want to hear this one.
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  10. #10
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi View Post
    Mike,
    In the bolded section above, please inform me as to how this has been pretty well established? Especially in light of the manufacturers instructions as to not mixing treatements. Curious minds really want to hear this one.
    Well, about 7 years ago Tom Holder and Vicki Vaughan were working with Prazi dosing and found that Prazi dissolved in ProForm-C. So, Vicki used the two in combo and found that they worked better together than used separately. This was put up on KoiVet by Doc Johnson, resulting in innumerable folks using the combination. The only ill-effects I have seen reported involved overdosing the ProForm-C. Now, from a legal perspective, you don't think any manufacturer is going to say anything else, do you? ...unless the manufacturer produces both products and doesn't have competition in either, of course.

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