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Thread: applicable logic?

  1. #1
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    applicable logic?

    As I read the directions on the jar it said this "medicine" was good for external paracites and internal "worms". It made me think about the times humans take medicines that cleans out thier internals and they replace them with certain types of pro-biotics in yogurt.

    So with our beloved Koi, would it make sense to follow up such "medical" treatment with a Koi food that contains pro-botics?

    Or is the logic skewed?


    Hmmmmmmm????????

  2. #2
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by dick benbow View Post
    As I read the directions on the jar it said this "medicine" was good for external paracites and internal "worms". It made me think about the times humans take medicines that cleans out thier internals and they replace them with certain types of pro-biotics in yogurt.

    So with our beloved Koi, would it make sense to follow up such "medical" treatment with a Koi food that contains pro-botics?

    Or is the logic skewed?


    Hmmmmmmm????????
    The use of pro-biotics is too replace good bacteria in the intestinal tract. I'm thinking the anti-parasite med you are talking about is probably prazi which should do nothing too destroy the bacteria in the intestinal tract.
    If anything, it should help too rid parasites from the gut making it better for the fish if they had them in the first place.

  3. #3
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dick benbow View Post
    As I read the directions on the jar it said this "medicine" was good for external paracites and internal "worms". It made me think about the times humans take medicines that cleans out thier internals and they replace them with certain types of pro-biotics in yogurt.

    So with our beloved Koi, would it make sense to follow up such "medical" treatment with a Koi food that contains pro-botics?

    Or is the logic skewed?


    Hmmmmmmm????????
    Actually I had this conversation with someone over at the pHen house a few years back. Some of the meds used to treat Koi are "broad spectrum" which makes them indiscriminate as to "good" or "bad" bacteria or virus's. In those instances at least I would assume that a probiotic could be of of immediate benefit and in any case do no harm.

  4. #4
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    Pro-biotics have been studied quite a bit in warm blooded land animals. If the intestinal bacteria have been compromised with antiboitic treatments or whatever feeding pro-biotics can speed up the process of re-establishing normal colonies of bacteria.

    However the research I have seen is fairly thin for using pro-biotics in fish in general and koi specifically. Pro-biotics does make great marketing advertising and rationale for higher priced foods.

    After a winter fast I think it makes sense to provide some additional digestive support. However, feeding probotics as a regular diet make little sense based on what I know. About as much sense as much as adding beneficial bacteria to a established healthy pond. At any rate it seems most of the higher quality foods are adding pro-biotics anyway.
    Disclosure:These opinions are based on my experience and conversations with persons I consider accomplished koi keepers and do not reflect the viewpoint of any organization.

  5. #5
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    I have to agree. It's all a money making scheme. Even people only need pro-biotics after an antibiotic regiment.

    Don't fix what ain't broken.

  6. #6
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    thanks all for your input.

    before this question came up in my mind i had been feeding the pro-biotics foods and noticed that in my sump, a noticeable amount of waste
    was not accumulating. Close as i could figure it was about half as before.

    That is the trouble with fish, not alot of actual studies. So one has to go sometimes with gut reaction.(pun intended)

  7. #7
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    Dick, was it at a time when it was cold and you had cut back on feeding?

  8. #8
    Oyagoi
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    I am a believe in probiotics from when we dairy farmed.
    after the calf was born we gave a 1/2 tube at first feeding and then partial next few days till gone.Really got the calf off to a great jump start.did not have problem with scours and and such after starting this.
    would even include a little in feed for growing hiefers .

    Also gave to the milking herd started few weeks before calving and pretty much to end of lacation.milk increased some to fact also larger appetite from feeding.seemed to have less"off feed " conditions from the cattle also.

    claf was given a tube of a paste texture.older animals were fed dry powder mixed in feed.
    so i understand cows and fish would be different but from my expeirence with the dairy cattle( no science to back up just observation) i will always want probiotic in my koi food also..

    also wonder how it is applied to the koi food could effect its performance.
    Paul Korf

    member of:
    Midwest Pond and Koi Society
    Louisville Koi club
    IKONA

  9. #9
    Daihonmei
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    simplifying probiotics is not applying logic.
    them Hikari boys have tons of probiotics in their food So does Blackwater (in their GOLD anyway)

    The digestive system of a koi ain't an acre of dirt, consistently it is flushed..and flushed by different textured foods, and acidities and alkalinities, and rates.... and anything else YOU haven't given the least little bit of thought to..evidently.
    Now most of you know that a "ghost pooh" is an empty casing of the digestive lining...at least that is what we have been taught...but when a koi poohs out a normal pooh the lining is often expelled in one wad as well...So constant redosing is beneficial... Unless you can show me where in a koi digestive tract their is a structure that has developed like an appendix, ands purpose is to redose the digestive tract...
    Now don't get me wrong I think alot of stupid shit is professed as "fact" in this hobby, and Koi hobbyists are willing to grab a serving spoon and start gulping it down like banana pudding... Bamanda fu-dding.
    Would I believe Joe Pawlak out of the blue, if he started putting a probiotic in his food and telling me it was the right thing. Hell no.
    But Hikari did it first and Joe is doing it now...and guess what? The Probiotic is the most expensive thing in the food...and Joe is Nothing if he ain't bright when it comes to business..if he could make the best food he could think of without a probiotic in it that cost so damn much then he would...but instead he pays a premium to get the probiotic added to his food and then he has to charge the extra amount to cover it.

    How does the probiotic that he adds to his food work?
    Honestly I do not have first hand knowledge of that...but in human food often a probiotic is added because the organisms help break down the food so it can be absorbed by the intestinal lining...and the probiotic isn't some highly evolved organism that knows it has to swim up stream to stay in the nice warm fuzzy gut of the animal it is within..It gets flushed out into the cold cruel world and is none the wiser...and that is why in many cases probiotics are a consistently needed required positive addition to the food.
    In the case of probiotics in koi foods...well maybe Hikari is a fool...You tell me?
    And Joe..is he being stupid by making a food more expensive by adding an ingredient that isn't needed?
    So without knowing Hikari and Joe have their reasons for adding it to their best food I'd be against probiotic hippie organic crap added to my food too.

  10. #10
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    My angle on this really does come down to an issue of measured practicality. Probiotics are a reasonable "digestive adjunct" approach to feeding, especially during and after medical treatments. Where I draw the line is when hype is used to jack up the price tag of feed with unsubstantiated claims and promises.

    It goes right back to the "digestibility" issues we see and hear from some feed mfg. While we all know some feed sources produce a great deal of waste and no benefit to Koi, "super digestibility" comes in a matter of degrees that is measured in Koi mass, not turd mass. We've all seen feeds that claim "highly digestible with less waste" to justify a high price, but we also know that if those extra $$$ don't equate to significantly better growth per $$$ spent, it is going to waste somewhere.

    I'll use the same logic on Koi I do with snooty obnoxious people. Koi are after all the "Rothschild's" of the Carp world aren't they? When confronted with a true snob I will remind them that they are after all nothing more than the sum total of everything that wouldn't make a good turd. A crude truism, but true nonetheless.

    Everything a Koi ingests is either excreted as waste (solid, liquid, or vapor) or utilized for building bone, fat, muscle, organs, etc... Even that which is used for energy is excreted as waste in one form or another and eventually our filters have to deal with it. What we can't measure is how much of it is NOT solid. We can weigh the turds in settlement if we really want to, but it's tough to weigh ammonia and CO2 isn't it.

    I know catfish chow will fill my settlement with large, yellow, tubular, cornmeal muffin turds. I know high quality Koi food will not. The bang for the $$$ is measured in Koi performance, not turd tally's. Probiotic enhanced foods do no harm in any circumstance and offer benefits at least in some. The bottom line is still the $ame bottom line. How well do your Koi do for the money you $pend.
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

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