what's your take on Jumbo Tosai

[dick benbow]

just a marketing gimmic? A good way to select a koi with the genes to grow big? Pay me now or pay me later, just another chapter in delayed health problems due to pushing too hard, too early? be interested in seeing your take on the subject, Pro, or con.

[RayJordan]

Maybe no! Those of us that have spent time with Japanese koi judges, breeders, and dealers know that they seldom give definate yes or no answers. So you eventually learn to try to translate their responses. When they say "maybe no" it usually means they do not want to offend by saying Hell No so they say maybe no.

Back to the question of "Jumbo" Tosai and are they worth the higher cost? I have purchased several "jumbo" Tosai" from top and middle tier breeders in Japan and in the U.S. I paid prices up to what a nice nisai would cost! About half have turned out to be male even though touted to be female. None have turned out to be jumbo or high quality adults, at least under my care. IMO for 99% of the "Jumbo" tosai sold and for 99% of the hobbyist's in the U.S. I would say Maybe no!

[dick benbow]

after reading your response Ray, i stopped and thought about mine and I never hung on to one long enough to see if it had issues later in life. I did see quite often that the second year of thier life they tended to stall as far as rapid growth. Thanks for your input.....

[PapaBear]

Ray, I honestly believe that may be the best answer I've ever heard

[kntry]

You can't get more than what was genetically programed. I've never bought one but I think at some point they're "normal" counterparts catch up with them.

Overpriced is my answer.

[HEADACHE6]

Quote: Originally Posted by kntry You can't get more than what was genetically programed. I've never bought one but I think at some point they're "normal" counterparts catch up with them. Overpriced is my answer.

I agree with your answer Sandy , Overpriced .

I grew early (6' 1" in 7th grade) and all my friends from Basketball caught & passed me by my Senior Year . I'd guess Koi grow at different rates & times just like we do .

[Lam Nguyen]

More food for thought:

1. Would you rather pay $500 for a certified female JT (90% certainty) or pay $150 for a regular sized koi whose sex is unknown (we all know that these are mostly males) or are almost finished?

2. I must admit that koi do catch up over time. But my question to fellow KBers is do they completely catch up to their siblings? For example, a true tategoi in breeder's care reaches 30" in 5yrs and maximal potential size of 36" at 7-10yrs of age. Now, would a JT with the same identical size genetic be able to reach 36" in her lifetime if raised in a hobbyist's pond from ake nisai on? I don't know the answer to this question but would speculate from what I know that the JT raised in hobbyist's pond from JT on would never reach 36". In fact I would be surprised if she even reaches the 30" mark.

3. Price is all relative. In other words, would I rather pay $3K for a JT or wait until the koi is nisai under breeder's care then pay $3k for that same koi? The answer is a no-brainer. However, given what I know about the breeder's stock and genetics, would I be willing to invest $500 in a certified female JT knowing that a nisai of similar quality would fetch $2-3K? This definitely depends on one's wallet thickness.

4. I would agree that it's more of a marketing gimmick. But one must understand that it takes more investment to get a koi to 12-14" by this time than keeping tosai stunted at 8-10" over winter d/t electrical/gas and food cost.

IMO, everything's relative and it boils down to supply and demand. In other words, if JT cost too much then no one will buy them.....well, there's always those few wealthy hobbyists out there. This is why it's best to educate yourself to be able to judge conformation, quality, and sex at a young age. It is also best to know what your objective is, whether it's to have a pond full of grand champion potentials or just nice quality females to relax at pondside or a pond full of males. Besides, not everyone can afford a $3K or great nisai (I know I can't ;-)!).

Given what I know about this hobby so far, I am still a firm believer in quality over quantity. That is, I would rather save up for one nice nisai than several decent certified female JT or several dozen regular sized tosai. It's all relative, my friends. It's all relative.

[Eugeneg]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow just a marketing gimmic? A good way to select a koi with the genes to grow big? Pay me now or pay me later, just another chapter in delayed health problems due to pushing too hard, too early? be interested in seeing your take on the subject, Pro, or con.

Large fish produce a small number of large young. Large tosai are the ones
that have the best growth potential and can be detected quite young.
Genetically koi originate from Persia so there is no reason for them not to be fed well and kept at higher temperatures. The biggest problem is cost as I see it. Who would dare say that the fish in Florida have delayed health problems because of temperature. Now if you do not heat the same fish will still grow but it takes a lot longer and saves a lot of money.
As to costs it does not matter when you get them the larger quolity tosai are going to cost more it does not matter when you get them.
As to selection of fish I have found out that the best way is to ask a breeder to select for you just give him some guide lines. I have had two Japanese breeders that did that for me and they were extremely generous. This works with US breeders and dealers as tosai are more difficult to judge for true value.
I think that the worst is to be well healed and a true expert, then you are
likely to be taken. Saving my money for my next purchasing trip
Regards
Eugene

[RayJordan]

If anyone knows of a Jumbo tosai purchased at one of the Japanese top breeders at an auction or otherwise that has gone on to become a major award winner I would love to hear about it. When you add up the sales of Jumbo tosai in Japan at top breeders and dealers the total numbers of koi sold as jumbo tosai must be many thousands. Where's the beef???

[Lam Nguyen]

Quote: Originally Posted by RayJordan If anyone knows of a Jumbo tosai purchased at one of the Japanese top breeders at an auction or otherwise that has gone on to become a major award winner I would love to hear about it. When you add up the sales of Jumbo tosai in Japan at top breeders and dealers the total numbers of koi sold as jumbo tosai must be many thousands. Where's the beef???

Where's the beef??? Maybe no beef, Ray-san.......maybe no beef.