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Thread: Bleeding out, what am I doing wrong?

  1. #1
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    Bleeding out, what am I doing wrong?

    I've hauled fish 10 hours each way to shows with no problems.

    I moved 6 fish to the mud pond so far. It's a 30 minute ride. The first one bled out and died the next day.

    I bagged my Showa, the one that won Young Champion, this morning and she bled out in the bag. I'm praying she lives. She's acting fine but so did the Shiro.

    I know they bleed because it's stress and acts like high blood pressure but the gill filaments are so thin, it bleeds through.

    I moved a 28" longfin today and a 26" Yamabuki yesterday with no problems. Both these fish were much larger than this Showa.

    What I don't understand is why it's happening. Both fish that bled out were easily caught without chasing them. I netted them, put them in the sock net, measured & photoed and put them in the bag with a pinch of Elbagin. I put oxygen, laid them on their sides in the box, box sides ways in the truck, a/c on.

    They don't bleed out while being caught or measured, it's after they're in the ice chest and closed up.

    How do they do this with big girls shipping from Japan?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Bleeding out, what am I doing wrong?-showa-25-inches-3-26-10.jpg  
    The views expressed above are my own personal views and, as such, do not necessarily reflect the views of the AKCA or the KHA program.
    SANDY

  2. #2
    Oyagoi gcuss's Avatar
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    Wish I could offer something other than best wishes Sandy. But you're far more accomplished than I so I'll wait for the pro's to chime in. Seems very weird though considering others are making the journey in the same fashion with no issues....


    Grant

  3. #3
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    It really does make zero sense. You are not a rookie, you've hauled more fish a lot further than this, and you are following excellent procedures. I got no suggestions at all.

  4. #4
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Sorry to hear this, Sandy. Just got to chalk it up to Chit Happens.

  5. #5
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by kntry View Post
    I've hauled fish 10 hours each way to shows with no problems.

    I moved 6 fish to the mud pond so far. It's a 30 minute ride. The first one bled out and died the next day.

    I bagged my Showa, the one that won Young Champion, this morning and she bled out in the bag. I'm praying she lives. She's acting fine but so did the Shiro.

    I know they bleed because it's stress and acts like high blood pressure but the gill filaments are so thin, it bleeds through.

    I moved a 28" longfin today and a 26" Yamabuki yesterday with no problems. Both these fish were much larger than this Showa.

    What I don't understand is why it's happening. Both fish that bled out were easily caught without chasing them. I netted them, put them in the sock net, measured & photoed and put them in the bag with a pinch of Elbagin. I put oxygen, laid them on their sides in the box, box sides ways in the truck, a/c on.

    They don't bleed out while being caught or measured, it's after they're in the ice chest and closed up.

    How do they do this with big girls shipping from Japan?
    While some fish are more susceptible to bleeding from the gills than others, there is typically a reason.

    When was the ast time any pond treatments were made? PP, MG/F, salt, etc?

    Have there been fluctuations in water temps?

    Were the koi fasted prior to the move?

    Water parameters?

    Something made the koi bleed. It could be something as simple as Flight response after other stressors from the norm.

    You may never lnow for sure.
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  6. #6
    Oyagoi Ethan25's Avatar
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    wow, Im really sorry about that KNTRY. That's horrible...

    I honestly think some fish are just more prone to it. All I have to do is glance at my wife's Longfin bekko, and the gills start to bleed. Sometimes there's nothing you can do about it. I have heard about amazing fish that some do not show for fear of it bleeding out on the ride there.

  7. #7
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    Thanks for the responses.

    Steve, I have never used any treatments in my ponds. No PP, MF, nothing. The last time I put salt in was right after Katrina.

    They fasted from Christmas until about 3 weeks ago. I started feeding about a cup in the morning between 10 fish and haven't fed every day. I haven't fed them at all in the last week+ because we've been moving.

    There has been temp swings but not drastic. All these fish are in the same pond.

  8. #8
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by kntry View Post
    Thanks for the responses.

    Steve, I have never used any treatments in my ponds. No PP, MF, nothing. The last time I put salt in was right after Katrina.

    They fasted from Christmas until about 3 weeks ago. I started feeding about a cup in the morning between 10 fish and haven't fed every day. I haven't fed them at all in the last week+ because we've been moving.

    There has been temp swings but not drastic. All these fish are in the same pond.

    All fish are different so just because onne does and another doesn't does not mean that other wouldn't given more time. I wasn't trying to pinpoint a cause but simply was making examples. Only you can search for the possibilities. It could be something simple or something much more complex.
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  9. #9
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    Hi Sandy,
    Sorry to hear about your koi. Here are a few general issues about bleeding from th gills in case they help someone else they may not apply to your koi.

    Hormonal changes in the spring in female koi make their gills more suseptible to bleeding.

    Using a sock net with larger koi where their body weight is not supported by water or letting them bend too far. Better to use a plastic bag with enought water to move larger fish.

    When transferred from sock net or plastic bag into transport box if they bang into the bottom or side of the box with their gill area they can bleed.

    While being transported if they are startled or get a bumpy ride or just nearous and start trying to jump in the transport container. Just the right size bag/boxes and enought water to float the koi but ot enought room for them to move around. It is a good idea to pad the inside of the container with bubble wrap or foam rubber. Be sure to transport the box sideways to the direction you are driving.

    I also like to use small ice packs in the box but outside the bag to keep the water from getting warmer. Use containers with a light tight lid to keep them in the dark and from seeing light and shadow movement which might cause them to try and escape. I also like to use bag buddies which has a very mild aneseptic and calming effect.

    For trips longer than about 3-4 hours I like to use "new" dechlorinatd aerated water vs pond water. Pond water will quickly start to decay when removed from the pond.

    Also it has been found that exposure to any agent that damages the gills such as pp, chlorine, etc. even in low doses over time can increase bleeding from the gills.

    Hope these ideas help someone.
    Disclosure:These opinions are based on my experience and conversations with persons I consider accomplished koi keepers and do not reflect the viewpoint of any organization.

  10. #10
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    Thanks, Ray.

    The main things I can see that I did "wrong" was using the sock net even though they were never out of water.

    I had just enough water in the bags to cover their gills, the boxes were either closed or had several layers of shade cloth over them.

    I used Elbagin as a sedative but I'm going to get Bag Buddies today to try moving the rest of them.

    I guess I'm moving them at the wrong time of the year since, in the past, my koi always spawned about this time of the year. These fish have never spawned and do not have eggs now but they are just coming out of winter.

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