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Thread: "Purchased" Shiro utsuri form Nisei koi farm

  1. #11
    Honmei
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    The last two pics (if accurate) make the koi look much better...less yellowing of the head and far better looking skin. Along with the 'ifs" already presented, the motogur is the unknown. If it comes in tight (if at all), this could be a very impressive Shiro.

    Good luck.
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  2. #12
    Oyagoi Bob Winkler's Avatar
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    I like the direction she is going.... Worth the gamble if you have the room in Lake Luke

  3. #13
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    WOW! I am new and just figured out that you are buying New Jersey bred Koi and not Koi from Japan!
    Here, on the West Coast, we do not see quality mainland U.S. bred Koi that much.

    Comments?
    That's because the top-end U.S. breeders must act as their own dealers. Those who are best skilled in the breeding art are not so skilled in the dealer role.

    You will find numerous discussions in threads on this board and others about domestic koi and Japan-bred koi. The discussions are always interesting, but very repetitive. Until a domestic bred koi takes top honors at a major show (the 'chase for JR's dollar'), there really isn't much new to be said.

    As I see it, no U.S. breeder has a produced a koi equal to the best produced in Japan; and, so far, none have succeeded in producing a koi equal even to the best imported to the U.S. (The best imported to the U.S. are a step down from the best produced in Japan, with maybe a very rare exception.) However, the best produced by Nisei Koi Farm, Lotusland Koi Farm and Purdin Koi Farm (to pick 3), are very nice koi. A person looking to acquire a koi priced at, say, $3500 and less can acquire a domestic koi equivalent to imports similarly priced at the established dealerships. Some at an even higher price level do get produced, but are very few. There is less selection available from the domestic breeders at the high end of their production compared to what the dealers import from far more numerous Japanese breeders, and they are not as adroit in their photography on their websites as the dealers who have become well-known coast-to-coast. Any established dealer will either denigrate domestic koi or avoid the subject. They do not carry them, so they are not going to talk about them positively. They will extoll the virtues of whatever breeders whose koi they carry, and all that hype from numerous dealers skilled in their profession can only work against domestic breeders.

    Some day a domestic will take GC at a major U.S. show, and thereafter it will happen again. At that point I believe more hobbyists will broaden their vision, and the best domestic breeders will have a new opportunity for recognition. It may not occur by the 2011 deadline for JR's dollar, but it will occur. Keep in mind that the best domestic breeders have not been focused on breeding for show-winning quality for very long. It takes 6 or 7 years minimum to raise a koi to GC size, and with some bloodlines could take 8 or 9 years. Even if the future domestic-bred GC was hatched in 2005, it may not be ready for show until 2012 or later.

    The nice aspect of the best domestic breeders is that you can really get to know the traits of their fish. You can speak with the breeder without translation being required. You can know when new oyagoi matches are being made. So, don't overlook the possibility that the koi you want was hatched in New Jersey or North Carolina or Louisiana.

    LUKE: Don't you recall that Shiro from last October?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    That's because the top-end U.S. breeders must act as their own dealers. Those who are best skilled in the breeding art are not so skilled in the dealer role.

    You will find numerous discussions in threads on this board and others about domestic koi and Japan-bred koi. The discussions are always interesting, but very repetitive. Until a domestic bred koi takes top honors at a major show (the 'chase for JR's dollar'), there really isn't much new to be said.

    As I see it, no U.S. breeder has a produced a koi equal to the best produced in Japan; and, so far, none have succeeded in producing a koi equal even to the best imported to the U.S. (The best imported to the U.S. are a step down from the best produced in Japan, with maybe a very rare exception.) However, the best produced by Nisei Koi Farm, Lotusland Koi Farm and Purdin Koi Farm (to pick 3), are very nice koi. A person looking to acquire a koi priced at, say, $3500 and less can acquire a domestic koi equivalent to imports similarly priced at the established dealerships. Some at an even higher price level do get produced, but are very few. There is less selection available from the domestic breeders at the high end of their production compared to what the dealers import from far more numerous Japanese breeders, and they are not as adroit in their photography on their websites as the dealers who have become well-known coast-to-coast. Any established dealer will either denigrate domestic koi or avoid the subject. They do not carry them, so they are not going to talk about them positively. They will extoll the virtues of whatever breeders whose koi they carry, and all that hype from numerous dealers skilled in their profession can only work against domestic breeders.

    Some day a domestic will take GC at a major U.S. show, and thereafter it will happen again. At that point I believe more hobbyists will broaden their vision, and the best domestic breeders will have a new opportunity for recognition. It may not occur by the 2011 deadline for JR's dollar, but it will occur. Keep in mind that the best domestic breeders have not been focused on breeding for show-winning quality for very long. It takes 6 or 7 years minimum to raise a koi to GC size, and with some bloodlines could take 8 or 9 years. Even if the future domestic-bred GC was hatched in 2005, it may not be ready for show until 2012 or later.

    The nice aspect of the best domestic breeders is that you can really get to know the traits of their fish. You can speak with the breeder without translation being required. You can know when new oyagoi matches are being made. So, don't overlook the possibility that the koi you want was hatched in New Jersey or North Carolina or Louisiana.

    LUKE: Don't you recall that Shiro from last October?
    Don't forget Eastern Tennessee! Mike Hammock has bred some outstanding Shiro Utsuri and last year some great Kohaku as well. He's supplying the koi for the judges' exercises at the AKCA Seminat next month in Nashville. I think there will be many eyes opened. As a matter of fact, we're head to Mike's this weekend.
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  5. #15
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Yep.

    It is interesting how U.S. domestic breeders are gaining reputations in regard to particular varieties. Hammock is seen as particularly successful with Shiro Utsuri. For Kohaku it is Purdin and Lotusland. For Sanke, it's Nisei Koi Farm. For Showa... well, that's an interesting situation. Scott, Brady and Mat are using different genetics. I think Brady has been seen as particularly successful with Showa [remember the attention our nursing friend received for her USA Showa?]. Some of the more recent Purdin Showa have gotten quite a bit of buzz. And, Mat's work with Sakai's atarashi sumi is just starting to get to the age where some results can be seen. Of course, fine examples of the big 4 varieties can be found at these farms. Still, like in Japan, there are impressions that take hold.

    BTW, I have heard more than one person say that the best way to avoid having shimmies on your Kohaku is to buy domestic. I don't have any reason to believe domestics are less prone to shimmies, but it is an example of one of those impressions that people can have stick in their minds.

  6. #16
    Daihonmei
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    "LUKE: Don't you recall that Shiro from last October? "
    -MikeM

    Yer kiddin' right?

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by pskorf View Post
    I got a shiro 3 years ago at 22 inches from them trying to find a more recent picture before i post my purchased photo.(found one from a year ago
    possibly different parents ??????
    i have more hope then money also.
    well i am still WAITING for the sumi and she has not gotten that large for me guessing 24+.some sumi has come but keeps looking like more is coming.
    I'd stil like to see pics if you got em

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke frisbee View Post
    I'd stil like to see pics if you got em
    will get some shot today.
    after i said about posting photos and could not find any recent it put me in the mood to catch and measure a few others.need to think about possible who goes where for shows and even what shows to go to.

    but will say this your koi is WAY ahead on speed of sumi coming up.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by pskorf View Post
    will get some shot today.
    after i said about posting photos and could not find any recent it put me in the mood to catch and measure a few others.need to think about possible who goes where for shows and even what shows to go to.

    but will say this your koi is WAY ahead on speed of sumi coming up.

    funny thing is I wanted the sumi to stay down for a couple of years longer

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