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Thread: steroids

  1. #1
    Nisai jtp79's Avatar
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    steroids

    I was just sitting here thinking on a nasty rainy day in Tn.
    Athletes and everything,,,horses,,,chickens,,,cows,,,are injected with steroids in order to get bigger,,,stronger,,better looking bodies. Would this have any benefit in a koi?

  2. #2
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    I truly cannot imagine how.

    Steroids may add muscle mass/bulk, but at what cost?
    Skeletal structure is weakened, organs are damaged, immune systems are often compromised, fatty tissues are burned off to an undesirable extreme, osmoregulatory functions are compromised, etc...

    Each and every one of those issues would only tend to compound a line bred gene pool that is already compromised in many ways at a genetic level. What good would it be to add muscle mass to a fish while ruining the very bodily functions needed for healthy skin and vibrant color? Jumbo Koi with powerful tailtubes, fading colors, and dulled skin... Hard to find a "winning combo" in that for me.
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

  3. #3
    Nisai jtp79's Avatar
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    Excellent reply. I had no idea if it would be of any benefit. Just an idea and a topic for discussion.
    What makes you think it would damage the color and skin quality. My only thought was for increased growth,,, but I'm sure it would be at some cost. It always is.

  4. #4
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Skin needs to be well nourished in order to maintain its youthful luster and vibrant color. Steroids interfere with normal osmotic function on multiple levels and at least in humans tend to cause digestive issues, hormonal imbalances, and are slow to be processed out of tissues. All of those things would cause me to think that skin health and color would be negatively impacted.

  5. #5
    Daihonmei
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    yep, steroids have been used in koi. Not as you might think, in that I know of case where steroids were used to enhance show fish ( but then again, who would admit it?). But steroids have absolutely been used in the growing of koi/carp here in the west. I have an article somewhere in my library of an outfit in the UK that said it would produce a one meter kohaku by using steroids after experimenting and getting a chagoi to 42 inches.

    Not all hormones are steroids but all steroids are hormones!
    I think the steroid description you are referring to are steroid = hormones that act on the body to trigger or change metabolism. The use of sexual hormines, for instance, to bring a female into breeding cycle are very commonly used ( pituitary type). And the use of growth hormones and anti-growth hormones are also used. Even hormones to color up fish are used here and there in ornamental fishes.
    I would find it hard to believe,( although I've never seen or heard gossip about it's use in Japan) that SOMEONE , somewhere along the line didn't experiment with growth and color hormones for improving serious fish for show in Japan? JR

  6. #6
    Tategoi
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    I'm feeding my kois chicken feed and the feed has hormones in it. The feed are mostly crack corn and they can't digest that stuff too well but they do eat it. I'm not doing any test to check if hormone feed koi better then standard koi food but I would think that as long as the fish gets food, they are happy. The feed sinks and the fish loves this part. They find it like in the wild and they make a lot of poop with the feed. And I extreamly over feed. As in I grab a half hand full for the two ryukin and 1 5" sanke. The ryukin are new and they have no choice but to love this chicken feed. And I do mix koi food into the feed. And it poplutes the water more so then the koi food.

    Based upon my experience, they koi fish are fine eating the stuff I'm giving them. The color are vibe and they have not died yet (almost 1 year now). The sanke is from a spawn from last summer and she's been on the chicken feed mix with koi food since she first ate. I know that 5" is small for 7 month old koi but now I know how to raiser her better then last year. Hoping she will get to 12" before Oct this year.
    Akitsushima Tombo

  7. #7
    Oyagoi
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    I confess. Well, I already did so long ago to the previous DC, but I'll do it again in public this time to the new DC (JR).

    Many years ago and not so far away (up in Houston) at hinpyokai....

    It was early spring and we were spawning fish. I had "borrowed" a very nice showa named "Torch" a fish from a spawn on my farm several years earlier, (because she was mostly black in the back and red in the front) from a close friend. As with the others that night, Torch was hyped up with some CCP (Crude Carp Pituitary) and HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin). But alas, she did not lay. So Torch got took back home.

    Unbeknownst to me, Torch's owner (caretaker if in Cali) packed her up and took her to the show that weekend. Well, Torch lived up to her name. She was brilliantly colored up from the hormones she'd gotten a few days earlier. Torch got "Best in Size 5" and the Japanese judges raved on and on about her colors.

    I was the only person that knew, and I felt guilty for a long time until I decided to confess what happened to the DC. I received absolution and an admonition to "go and sin no more."

    No doubt you can hype up a koi, just like any other fish, with hormones. Especially at spawning time, this just intensifies the colors almost beyond belief.

    Not even close to ethical, though. Hormones are not good for the fish, they have a place in hatchery work as well as in fish medicine, but there is no place for chemical "doping" just to win at a show.

    There, its out, and just like my game warden friend used to tell me, "You'll feel so much better after you confess."

    If I had it to do over I'd make darn sure that such a fish did not go into a show, for many reasons, not the least of which the fish was already stressed out. But also, its unfair to field a hyped up fish in a show.

    It was an innocent mistake and has never been repeated by myself or anybody I know of.
    Brett

  8. #8
    Nisai
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    Rather than steroids i have heard of hobbyists who inject their koi with Vitamin B12 to stimulate feeding and growth.

    Is this for real? - surely not?

  9. #9
    Oyagoi dizzyfish's Avatar
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    Just to add to what JR said about hormones being used to color up other ornamental fish. Hormones are used quit extensively to color up discus and also African cichlids. The hormones allow the fish to color up like adults at small sizes. The Thailand discus breeders usually indicate which discus have been hormoned on pricing lists. It certainly makes it easier to sell these fish to a public who wants fish with color. Hormones are also used to allow breeders to predict which fish will have the most color as adults so these can be saved for breeding purposes, the practice actually began with guppy breeders quite some time ago. If over used some of these fish may end up sterile as a result, and the colors usually fade if the fish are not color fed.
    The use of hormones has also enabled breeders to spawn previously difficult fish like clown loaches and Synodontis catfish. Ovaprim which comes from salmon is commonly used for this purpose in the US.
    Mitch

  10. #10
    Daihonmei
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    Absolutely Mitch, even guppies are fed hormones to color up jumbos. I have never even heard whispers in Japan about the use of hormones. Not a peep, not a peep in 21 years of connections and visits over there. But that does not mean it absolutely doesn't happen as the practice is so well known in other forms of tropical fish and temperate water fish cultivation.
    When you go to Japan for a few years you still tend to be on the 'end' of the distribution chain and very much on the outside looking in ( albeit very close to the 'window' looking in). But over time, with left purchases, personal friendships, hanging around drinking tea for what seems like days, a slipped comment here and there and hanging with a few established dealers, a picture tends to emerge.
    The Niigata clans are pretty pure in that they do it the way they have always done it! In fact, If you go at a certain time of year you will STILL see very small breeders keeping koi outside in winter and protected exactly the same way they did 50 years ago. Even basic color food to feed the color cells of red are fed judiciously. Generously to tateshita and not so much to higher grades.
    In the south where the true production operations are, I would not be shocked to hear that 'some techniques' are used to push the envelope. That is not a criticism! Just an open mind to all the possibilities available to committed forced grow out farms in a very competitive world ( one where overhead is indeed high and big money is the prize). We may never know for certain?
    But as Brett innocently observed, when you inject for other reasons you eventually can't help but notice ' side effects' and I know that breeders, more and more, use injectibles in oyagoi as do most serious carp farms in the world. This is pretty straight forward for professionals farmers in that the 'old fashion' way of introducing three males to a rip gravid female for stimulation/spawning is frought with potential problems, so stripping the female at the right momemt of stimulation ( either male driven or injection driven) is most often the perferred controlling technique- once the 'plug' is dropped the fish are often stripped and the eggs mixed with the selected sperm of THE male that is wanted. I say all this to ask, how could one not notice the side effects of various hormonal injections? What temptation! Carp Pit. hormone and growth hormone are obvious suspects.
    The only real question is " can great koi pass a test to be in The Tour De France? LOLs JR

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