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Thread: Comments on this Kohaku

  1. #1
    Nisai
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
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    Atlanta, GA
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    Comments on this Kohaku

    Hi, this is an 8.3 in Kohaku from Igarashi (Sen-nin) Koi Farm. Any comments on this koi would be appreciated....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Comments on this Kohaku-igarashi-sen-nin-kohaku.jpg  

  2. #2
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
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    7,642
    attractive male show fish. Enter it now in the contest and maybe again next year. Since the beni is now uniform and 90% finished and the pattern is attractive this fish will likely place/win in the smaller sizes.
    Don't pay too much unless you really love this fish as it's future is limited. I'd say in the $125- $250 price range is fair retail. Below $110 it is a bargin. JR

  3. #3
    Nisai
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    Apr 2010
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    I got him for 130. I really like it in the picture, but when I got the fish yesturday, I noticed it had some red on its dorsal fin where there is the red on the body.... which I think is a fault? Other than that, the fish is pretty nice.

  4. #4
    Daihonmei
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    yep, good buy- a Goldilocks price-- not too low and not too high
    . Red in the pecs is a negative in young fish, but not a deal killer like the old days, as the general grade of the beni of this fish will help offset the pec issue. It always depends on the competition of the day of course, but you have a good shot with this fish. The overall presentation of quality, color and pattern is good. JR

  5. #5
    Jumbo
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    Ojiya, Niigata, Japan
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    The red is in the dorsal, not the pec.

    Looking at the picture it seems that the top edge of the dorsal is beni free, I wouldn't concern yourself with the beni in the dorsal.

  6. #6
    Daihonmei
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    Thank you Mark, I know I can always count on you Yes dorsal. 100% correct. Same comment as to the issue. In the ideal - no beni in the fins. In the low grade it is a serious fault.
    Mark, do you know why beni in the dorsal is considered a demerit? JR

  7. #7
    Nisai
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    Quote Originally Posted by markgardner View Post
    The red is in the dorsal, not the pec.

    Looking at the picture it seems that the top edge of the dorsal is beni free, I wouldn't concern yourself with the beni in the dorsal.
    Ya, I was assuming it to be all white based on the picture, But when I got it... It had some red about 2cm width not totally reaching to the tip... Would this seriously demerit the fish, if I were to enter it in any show?

  8. #8
    Daihonmei
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    Sep 2006
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    well Mark may be able to answer that better but since I'm an actual working koi judge, I'll give it a crack----

    A koi show is many things. And right up there in the top three is the fact that it is a live stock show. In fact the very first shows were agricultural shows. And like 4H club events the judging was about excellence in physical details of the entries. This orientation is about not only awarding points to the positive elements of an animal but identifying and weeding out the negatives-- especially the INHERITABLE negatives. So in it's most fundamental and crudest form, a koi show is to eliminate deformities, flaws and faults so that it is publically eliminated from breeding/gene pools. The same is true of all animal exhibitions of course, including dogs, cats, rabbits, chickens etc.

    Early on, the goal was to establish a specific pie bald pattern for gosanke. The most desirable ones being dorsally orientated patterns that appeared as refined islands of color down the back. And because gosanke pattern began with very random spotting all over the body, great efforts were taken to eliminate those patterns that were not responsive to selective breeding efforts. First to go were the wild patterns and random all over patterns.
    The show then would find the best of the best in terms of organized restricted and defined patterns and push those fish to the winner slots.
    In that effort, menkaburi ( red faces) , red fins and random red spots below the lateral line were eliminated. Once made taboo, for breeding or show, these traits became surpressed in the gene pool. But since pattern is part selective breeding and part culling, we are really talking about;

    1) an illusion of uniform breeding

    2) a very real reoccurence of specific and predictable piebald patterns

    The show is there to reinforce the ideal and eliminate the undersireable traits in pattern and form.


    So this agi-judging system produced very proper patterns and very technically correct fish when compared to a standard.
    As the judging concept evolved however, some fish were being left behind. They were special based on some spectacular elements but maybe not perfect in pattern-- yet more impressive that the technically perfect patterned fish. This was the birth of the concept of quality.

    Now most beginners can not see a real difference but koi come in grades of quality. And like a sliding scale, a fish is of quality it can break some of the rules of pattern. IF IT IS NOT OF HIGH QUALITY and it can NOT break those rules of pattern as the show is there to enforce the fundamental principle of organized pattern as a recognized piebald genetic trait.
    In short, a fish can not break the rules of pattern unless it is a very special fish that has other attributes that transend the basic rules of pattern.
    Secondly, you should know that pattern is important in young fish for this reason and also due to the fact that 'other elements' such as finished quality and body ( an adult trait) are not present in young fish. As fish grow and other elements such as quality come on, the pattern becomes less and less important. This statement primarily applies to adult female fish. So this represents a sliding scale of judgement.

    Today we may have gone too far in accepting quality over all other fundamental elements and it is up to the show to re-establish a limit. As a result we see breeders selling great quality fish that really can't be in a koi show?! They are what I call, collector fish and not really show fish. If they were to be awarded winner in a show and used for breeding ( most show fish are not breeders) then culling would indeed be heavy and have to rely on reduced reoccurence of recessive traits not found in the parent's phenotype but still retained in it's geneotype.

    JR

  9. #9
    Nisai
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    wow, you know your stuff~
    Thanks for the information.... I've learned a lot through this forum

  10. #10
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by poisonXvenom View Post
    wow, you know your stuff~
    Thanks for the information.... I've learned a lot through this forum

    I sure hope he knows his stuff. That is Jim Reilly, US District Chair for the ZNA. He's also a ZNA and AKCA certified judge. He's typically only wrong when he disagrees with me! LOL Kidding on that one of course....or am I? LOL
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

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