Home | About Us | Contact Us


Koi Forum - Koi-Bito Magazine straight from Japan
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11

Thread: kigoi, chagoi and karashigoi- peeling back the onion

  1. #1
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,642

    kigoi, chagoi and karashigoi- peeling back the onion

    Peeling back the onion

    For those that know the expression, know that removing layers is a good what to get to the bottom of things!
    Nishikigoi is difficult to understand intuitively because it is based in another language. But perhaps more of a barrier is the fact that it is based in a different culture—and Nishikigoi is weighted down heavily in cultural nuances.

    The names of koi for instance come from basic color descriptions ( an example of a simple language barrier) or from poetic expression ( definitely a ‘Japanese point of view’).
    So we have shiro muji, benigoi, kigoi , magoi , higoi, etc for basic color descriptions in a foreign language . And then descriptives of color via examples such as cha-goi ( tea colored).
    And finally we have kumonryu, ochiba shigure and kujaku to describe fish varieties in poetic terms.
    And to complicate things, many varieties are not varieties as all but rather hybrids of base varieties!!

    When it comes to the complex we see as just jumbo variety solid colored fish there seems to be a lot of confusion between chagoi and kigoi? I guess because to the western eye they are both large fish that range in color from yellow to tan, greenish brown to deep brown?
    But the truth is they are VERY different genetically and phenotypically. And karashigoi is a hybrid of the two ( chagoi and kigoi) or is it?

    Peeling back the first layer of the onion we see that the first division of names for koi as their color- deceives us! How? Well, kigoi is ‘yellow koi’ but kigoi, the variety is far more than just a yellow koi! In fact kigoi is a specific albino form in which all black is lacking in the skin leaving the color yellow as a dominate color. And as an albino in the Nishikigoi gene pool it is significant in its own right.
    Chagoi on the other hand is a common form arising from the ogon clan.
    Until the late 1990s it was considered taboo to cross pink eye colored koi ( due to the albino mutation removing sumi) with the black eyed versions of koi. In 1997 Konishi began to reverse engineer akame kigoi ( the very soft yellow version of albino, line bred for that trait) with chagoi. The goal being to blend the color cells to get a deeper darker tone.
    The flaw in this variety being an actual variety is in the fact that if a karashigoi has pink eyes then it is simply a kigoi – meaning all the sumi is gone within the skin and that allows the remaining color to dominate the phenotype. That is the definition of the albino or kigoi. Now the ‘ki’ is no longer yellow but mustard colored. You might say, “ so fine, it is a hybrid of the two”. But the answer would be no. Because albino is double recessive and it is the lack of sumi that defines the dominate skin type. The blend of two color cells to make shades of color is not enough to warrant a variety. If it were then we would name different lines of kohaku differently based on what shade the beni was from purple red to light orange yellow. Nope instead these kigoi should have a descriptive adjective like Akame is used to define that shade. There are red kigoi by the way. They are simply an albino who lacks sumi and that reveals red color cells instead of yellow. Would we call that a higoi? I think not! J
    So perhaps it was a mistake for the early Japanese breeders to refer to albino phase ogon types by their remaining base color rather than their actual identity which is an albino mutation? I think so actually. Because ‘kigoi’ is so much more than a yellow koi.

    JR

  2. #2
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,642
    two examples of 'kigoi' . Both albino forms

  3. #3
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    2,653
    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    two examples of 'kigoi' . Both albino forms
    THANKS!

    I have seen and owned the yellow form, but did not know about the red form.

  4. #4
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    11,128
    If Akame Kigoi is crossed with another Akame Kigoi, what are the progeny?

  5. #5
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    3,774
    If a pink eyed karashigoi is an akame kigoi, and a karashigoi is marketing name (rather than a variety), then what variety is a normal eyed karashigoi: A kigoi or a kigoi-colored chagoi?

    Kinda reminds me of the discussion we had of that doitsu gin-rin hariwake akame kigoi we had here a couple of years ago.

  6. #6
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,642
    Hi Mike, well, it's complicated! The simple answer is when an albino (recessive = aa) is crossed to another recessive of the same mutation, 100% of the young are also albino (simple punnet square which gives statistical odds.
    But nishikigoi are complicated in that they are a collection of recessive genes.
    If we look at what an albino is--- we see really a complex of genetic mutations that are all TYPES of albinism. Leucism, for instance is a type of albinism.
    Add to this the fact- wild animals have black in their coloring and that is from an organic pigment known as melanin. And melanin in wild animals comes in two types. 1) is Eumelanin ( black and brown/black ) and the 2) pheomelanin ( which is yellow, tan/blonde, reddish brown and red). These are called Cryptic Coloration genes and act as camouflage for the wild carp against a muddy bottom or in murky water.
    So the first kigoi were whitish brown with pink eyes. The line bred Akame kigoi also carries a mutation for color besides the aa alleles for albino ( lack of an ability to produce or process melanin properly.
    As you probably remember from your college Genetics or guppy breeding, phenotype is different than genotype and ‘carriers’ for albino can exist for generations within normal looking individuals. But once the ‘pink eye’ is in the phenotype, you can only have aa .
    The genes for pastel colors is the second albino mutation and a koi must have both to be akame. Best, JR


  7. #7
    Tosai
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    17
    Here's an example of an orange kigoi I picked up last August. It's a japanese koi, breeder unknown. It was around five inches when I picked it up. After a couple weeks in quarantine it spent just two months in the pond before I moved it inside for the winter. I noticed that it had grown at least an inch in that time span and bulked up. Now it's around nine inches long and will be going out in the pond in a month. Observations: I noticed that the growth rate on this fish is the fastest I've seen so far in a small koi. I also noticed that even when little it had huge pec fins. Over the last three years I've purchased other cheap, japanese koi before. They were Kohaku, Sanke, Kujaku and Showa mostly. This kigoi left them in the dust as far as growth rate.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails kigoi, chagoi and karashigoi- peeling back the onion-img_3834.jpg   kigoi, chagoi and karashigoi- peeling back the onion-img_3838.jpg  

  8. #8
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    2,653
    Quote Originally Posted by Chromer View Post
    Here's an example of an orange kigoi I picked up last August. It's a japanese koi, breeder unknown. It was around five inches when I picked it up. After a couple weeks in quarantine it spent just two months in the pond before I moved it inside for the winter. I noticed that it had grown at least an inch in that time span and bulked up. Now it's around nine inches long and will be going out in the pond in a month. Observations: I noticed that the growth rate on this fish is the fastest I've seen so far in a small koi. I also noticed that even when little it had huge pec fins. Over the last three years I've purchased other cheap, japanese koi before. They were Kohaku, Sanke, Kujaku and Showa mostly. This kigoi left them in the dust as far as growth rate.
    I would love to have a red-eyed Koi!

    When I was a kid, I had an aquarium with a collection of different albino tropical fish.



    UPDATE: I bought one last March, 2011.

  9. #9
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    2,653

    Karashigoi

    Today I saw my first Karashigoi in person at Andrew's Koi International.
    What caught my eye first was not actually a Karashigoi, it was some pinkish colored Gin Rin Chagoi. It was not the "beauty" so much, as it was that I had never seen a solid colored Koi like these with a pinkish color. When I asked Andy the owner about the fish, he misunderstood what I was describing and thought that I was talking about the several Karashigoi he had for sale.

    He took me in the back to see some Karashigoi he had.
    He said that the Karashigoi he had in the back had grown from 10" to 17" - 18" since August (3 months). He said they are growing faster than Chagoi.

    I found the Karashigoi and pinkish Gin Rin Chagoi interesting.

    My video contains all three… Chagoi, Kigoi, and Karashigoi.


  10. #10
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    11,128
    I've not seen such pale Chagoi before. Thanks for posting. It is a nice variation on the Chag.

    As impressive as super jumbo Chagoi and Soragoi are, in a pond the dark colors create a more somber atmosphere, and there is a tendency to blend into the dark background of the pond. It seems to me the pale Chagoi would stand out, which would make its size more obvious in a pond. Kigoi and Karashigoi can add vibrancy to the overall pond in somewhat the way a Yamabuki does. I don't know if the pale Chagoi would do likewise, but the novelty adds fun to the mix.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Differences in Chagoi, Kigoi and Karashigois
    By SRATHA in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 01-12-2014, 08:35 AM
  2. My new karashigoi's
    By Dnn87 in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-11-2011, 01:40 PM
  3. Pond Peeling
    By Steve Burke in forum Pond Construction
    Replies: 103
    Last Post: 10-07-2009, 02:31 AM
  4. Kigoi
    By N2koi in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 11-19-2008, 10:44 AM
  5. Domineering Karashigoi
    By mingaun in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 08-07-2008, 10:55 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Articles - Sitemap - FAQs and Rules

KB Footer Graphic
Straight from Japan... For the serious hobbyist!
All content and images copyright of: Koi-bito.com