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Thread: potassium permanganate

  1. #1
    Tosai
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    11

    potassium permanganate

    I have been a long-term follower of these forums with the plan to "join later" always at the back of my mind. I now need to ask some questions, since I am suffering from several pond problems I have never before seen. The long and short of it is that I am faced with fish ailments that will not go away. To help rectify this, I am going to start another series of PP treatments to my pond. I have used these for years and have had positive results, so I am confident with them as normally administered. It has been suggested to me that I let the PP pass through my bead filters to help cure the problem. This will of course kill off any good bacteria I do have, but I can reseed it and get it going again in a few days. I just wonder if anyone has had any experience doing this, and if it worked favorably. Any input anyone has would be greatly appreciated.

  2. #2
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,642
    .Tdew, I'm not sure where to start? You have wandered pretty far off the path when it comes to your approaches ( Internet education I suspect?).


    If you are having 'problems' that you need to get under control than I suggest that there is something fundamentally wrong somewhere or you would be reaching for the PP again? hope this is not too direct for you? If so I apologize but I do feel your frustration!

    I assume your fish are sick, or flashing or infected? If that is the case, we really need to review your entire set up, pond design, stocking levels etc.
    If instead you want simple answers to your questions that easy--- PP will knock down your biofilm in some cases only. But I would not treat a BB in high summer as the oxygen is low in the water already.
    On the outside chance you have a parasite trapped in your BB, it's trapped! It will die there. Not to worry. If your worried about bad bacteria in the filter- don't. it will live there no matter what you do or how many PP burns you do. Aeromonas is omni present in water no matter what the internet says about killing all bad bacteria.

    So, your call, how much do you want in way of an answer to your pond issues? JR

  3. #3
    Tosai
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    11
    JR

    I have read many of your posts in the past, so I am happy that you answered me when you did and as directly as you did. The direct approach does not hurt my feelings, since it is the fish that worry me.

    I have learned recently over the internet, but all of my earlier learning was through others and trial and error. I am on my third koi pond, but this one has had many problems.

    The fish are sick, are flashing, it is close to spawning time, and I am having nitrite issues. It is a bit of a perfect storm, and it really has me scratching my head. In talking to several of the local club members and my fish dealer the answer was, "what do you have to lose," since my nitrogen cycle is all messed up anyway. I am converting nicely from ammonia to nitrite, but I am getting stuck there. I have never had any problem like this in the past, but I cannot seem to get the filters to cycle now no matter what I try.

    What I am getting from your post is what I was thinking in my gut. If I want to try the PP again, I should do it with the BB's bypassed. If you want to review the whole set up with me, I am more than willing to do that as well. I have had a tough year for other reasons, and I feel as if this is causing me to miss something.

    I appreciate any help you and others are willing to give me.

  4. #4
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,642
    Ok, great ( and thank you for taking my directness as intended)

    So lets go thru the drill;

    1) how old is the biofilm in the BB and how old is the pond?

    2) have you checked pH?

    3) any ammonia or just NitrIte?

    4) how big is this third pond and many fish and of what size?

    5) do you know how to check for parasites? ( Scape and scope)

    6) do you belong to a koi club? I see you mentioned one.

    JR

  5. #5
    Tosai
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    11
    The pond is about a year old give or take. I let the pond run for a long time (over winter filters bypassed) before I added the fish to make sure everything was right with it. I added the first four fish about 3 months.

    Everything seemed to go well with those fish, so I brought some of my other good healthy fish here at the beginning or April. I would put the the biofilm at about four months.

    pH is great and holds around 7.8.

    There is no ammonia, but there is a substantial amount of NitrIte. I am keeping the pond salted at about %.20 to protect the fish.

    Pond is about 13,500 gallons. There are about 50 fish ranging from 4" to 20". The vast majority being in the 12" and under category.

    I have seen a lot online about scoping the parasites, but I have yet to see it done. Having not seen it in person, I have been reluctant to cross that bridge. Until now, salting the pond really good, and then following up with PP has worked for me. After years of doing that in the spring and being good the rest of the year I never changed it. This time something was introduced and it does not seem to be reacting to those treatments.

    I do not belong to a club, since it has only been in the last couple of years that my koi obsession has exploded. The newer, larger pond might be an indication of this.

    Thanks for your time and help with this problem.

  6. #6
    Oyagoi gcuss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Maple Falls, WA
    Posts
    1,620
    I'll leave you in the very capable hands of JR. But I'll ask a couple questions to save JR the step.

    Do you have bottom drains?

    How deep is your pond? Dimensions? Shape? Flat bottom? Bowled?

    Can you describe your filtration, settlement situation? eg. - 4" bottom drain- vortex - 3500 GPH pump- ultima 3000- return to pond. Be sure to include any circuits you have running (skimmer, BD's, mid level pick ups etc.)

    kH numbers?

    gH numbers?

    Nitrate numbers?

    Frequency and volume of water changes including dumping sumps, backwashing etc...

    Hate to grill you like this, but these are all important pieces of the puzzle. As a side note, I had never scraped and scoped before but bought a microscope and some slides and cover slips and had at 'er. It's actually quite easy and didn't take long to really get the hang of it. Buy the plastic cover slips and use that to scrape the koi. Less chance of hurting the fish or removing scales that way. (learned that the hard way )

    Glad you're posting and asking questions. Best wishes!

    Grant

  7. #7
    Nisai
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    97

    measurements

    if we estimate your total fish weight at between 35 and 50 pounds, your adult equivalent to gallons ratio is well over the 1000 gallon threshhold. that's great.

    what specific fish symptoms do you have? fin damage, ulcers around the lateral line, ventral or dorsal wounds, ich spots, what? any fish death especially unexplained?

    flashing is a curious behavior that can be attributed to several issues including food stuck in the gill arch and rapid ph changes. not necessarily a problem depending on other factors.

    what about water color and algae? is your test kit well calibrated and reliable?

    filter sizes and types? pond turnover rate?

    there is a lot of good information requested above that will help.

  8. #8
    Oyagoi
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Forreston,IL
    Posts
    1,073
    Quote Originally Posted by T Dew View Post

    Pond is about 13,500 gallons. There are about 50 fish ranging from 4" to 20". The vast majority being in the 12" and under category.
    this is what scares me and when people convert to lbs of fish and say a person is OK.
    I say how long?
    when quoted vast majority is under 12 inches means what 30,35,40 are going to keep growing(maybe even the rest should keep growing if under 20 inches) and throw that lbs of fish right out of the OK range.
    also read part of been 3 months and have this many fish.filters i can not see being ready to handle this load so fast on a new pond.

    so will wait to hear about filtration but still worried how new it is no matter what it is.
    Paul Korf

    member of:
    Midwest Pond and Koi Society
    Louisville Koi club
    IKONA

  9. #9
    Tosai
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    11
    I will agree that it was too much too soon, and I would normally never do that. It was a situation in which I had to move some fish sooner than I had planned. I will try to quickly answer all of the very valid questions that were posted, and I will prepare to take the whippings that are coming on a few issues.

    The pond is gunite and is and odd shape (I will try to post a picture later if anyone wants), but it is basically rectangular in shape with a circle coming off one corner. I hope that description makes sense when I am more awake, but it makes sense now. It is sloping toward two bottom drains and has two skimmers. It also has two waterfalls, and I am currently running an air pump just to be sure while I get used to everything.

    I am running two pumps that are pushing about 10,000 GPH through two BB filters with 6 cubic feet of media each. No vortex or anything else useful.

    My issues are two fold at this point. I have confirmed fish lice are present on several of my fish including on that I lost tonight. The local guy, whom I trust the most, hates to use anything in the chemical realm and he is the one that sold me on salting and PP over the years. Because of that I think I lost my chance to wipe out the lice when I had the chance previously. Now I need some advice on that, but I am much more concerned about my nitrogen cycle. I was under the impression that it had cycled previously, but it no longer seems that way.

    I will have to recheck kH and gH tomorrow, but they were both in the 120-180 range. I do not remember what was what, though. All test kits are calibrated and reading correctly (unfortunately). NitrAte was in the 10ppm range, I think - I will also have to recheck this tomorrow.

    I am sorry for the long post, but I am trying to catch everyone up to speed on what's happen and not happening here. I do feel a little silly for adding the fish so early to this pond, since I have been at this long enough to know better than that.

    Thanks again to everyone,
    Tom

  10. #10
    Nisai
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    97

    fear of measurement

    pskorf,

    being afraid of measurement doesn't change the fact that all our ponds sit firmly in the middle of a run of time where things change. the best adage for me is "if you do not measure, how do you know when to get mad"? the japanese have a wonderful approach to this sort of stuff that is called "kaisen", and believe me, the good ones measure all the time.

    there is another adage that says "if the minimums weren't good enough they wouldn't be the minimums." so our measurement says, according to Steve, 750 for males and 1000 for females. that average with half male and half female is 875. for this example of a maximum of 50 pounds of fish, he is at 4375 gallons required to meet the minimum. today he's at three times that value almost, so he is okay for now probably. so he measures next year and he is at 100 -- still okay in general. and he can make decisions from that data. but the important point is that, if he runs into a problem today or next year, i don't expect him to put pond size high on his list of causes.

    last adage that is useful in this example is "if you do not define, you cannot measure, if you cannot measure you cannot improve".

    as for the filter issue, it's agreed that we need more data and more measurement. i can't see a root cause here yet, myself. the newness issue is worth a look, and being in a warm climate myself, i cannot quite understand shutting off filters in the winter and that impact of that, but then someone else with more broad experience probably should weigh in on that one.

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