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Thread: Degassing Columns

  1. #11
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    And the nitrogen, as nitrAte is still removed by dilution (water changes)? Nature runs the nitrogen cycle from fixation round to denitrifcation and round again using complementary sets of bacteria. Most koi ponders utilize half the cycle at best and then we flush the rest. But this filter looks cool and the price seems reasonable.
    Are you saying that the "shower filter" is flushing the beneficial bacteria?

  2. #12
    Jumbo RobF's Avatar
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    No the shower filter provides an oxygen rich environment for the aerobic bacteria to produce the nitrate, but then so does a bead filter and a box filter, so it is just one design among many. It is the degassing, so often touted as an advantage of showers, that was the subject of this thread.

  3. #13
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Rob, I think you may be mixing the language up a bit here. These units make no claim of "degassing Ammonia", but rather providing aerobic biological filtration. The "degassing" is primarily via O2 displacing CO2, which is the common gaseous byproduct of bioconversion. I have no doubt that at least some level of Nitrogenous waste is volatilized and stripped, but that isn't the claim here.

  4. #14
    Daihonmei
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    Trickle towers are the ultimate filter because they can't clog and have the most contact with oxygen- which drives nitrification ( bacteria use a lot of oxygen to react with ammonia). In addition, Trickle towers with the right media, can't habor organics. As water rolls over plastic media in the thinnest of water layers ( that can pulse and vary in trickle as water shifts, collides etc as it washes over the media) you get gasses rushing out, evaporation and gases rushing in.
    Oxygen underwater can not enter the water in that abundance - nore can the biolfilm ever deplete the saturated oxygen level as oxygen is entering along every mm of water.
    This effect and the massive presence of oxygen will also cause protein skimming to occur.
    The conversion of organics to ammonia produces gases. And koi ponds are a very organically active sink- in fact a great percentage of ammonia is produced BY the system and its other inhabitants and not the fish themselves. These gases are all vented in a TT. As are the secondary and intermediate nitrogenous gases associated with mineralization.

    Again, you need to leave behind the notion that managing koi pond water is only about nitrification. It is not. Mineralization management is key as is gas management.
    So TT nitrification-- second to none due to oxygen supply and contact time with media.
    But real added value of degassing towers? Reduction in the nitrification level itself thru venting and leaking of nitrogenous waste species and two, an added additional pond surface beyond the usual water surface. JR

  5. #15
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quite some time ago I posted about some studies done on the volitilization of ammonia in waste water. My recollection is that some rather precise studies found around 15% of dissolved ammonia de-gassed when waste water was sprayed. (Some studies found more, some found less.) A continual shower processing large proportions of the pond volume can have very positive effects. There are many variables affecting the rate of de-gassing of ammonia, such as temperatures, humidity, levels of ammonia in the wastewater, etc. The greater the surface area exposed to the atmosphere, the greater the potential benefits. Of course, there are many other undesirable contaminants that de-gas, not the least of which are carbon dioxide and sulfides. Increasing surface area has many benefits.
    Last edited by MikeM; 06-22-2010 at 06:25 PM. Reason: typo

  6. #16
    Daihonmei
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    Mike, I also don't think the average ponder understands that

  7. #17
    Tategoi andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    You'r definitely on the right track in your thinking as degassing is the final frontier in advanced koi pond design.
    While the water garden hobby struggles with controling ammonia ( a fairly simple task) the cutting edge of koi keeping as moved thru the issues of organic waste management ( in the late 1990s) and now unto the concept of gas and gaseous waste management in an organically rich environment.

    The place to start if one whats to begin their understanding and education in this dimension of water management, think of a pond surface-

    In a typical pond, the water is interacting with the atmosphere at that one zone- the surface. Indeed this is not lost on aquaculture in general as volumes have been written the importance of gas exchange in field and earthen dams ponds. But the concept of interaction of atmosphere and water runs far beyond carbon dioxide and oxygen exchange! Oxygen is the very life's blood of a closed system!!!
    Oxygen and gas venting drives alkalinity reserve, pH, nitrification, lack of denitrification, decay rates, ammonia evaporation, venting of nitrogenous wastes in gaseous forms and the metabolic ease in which koi operate.

    So when we create a tower system we are accomplsihing many many things. But back on point-- when we create a tower system we expanded the ponds 'water surface' and therefore atmospheric/water interaction ten fold or more.
    Once this has been accomplished we have succeeded in providing a release or leak of all intermeidate waste produces that are in a state of decay or conversion.
    Huge , huge step forward.. JR
    could not agree more..............well said

  8. #18
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Mike, I also don't think the average ponder understands that as organic material is broken down by bacteria, ammonia and several byproducts are released( and much of it nitrite or nitrate). And different species use diffrent things for energy and produce different byproducts. This is why I use the term 'species' when talking about the different byproducts of nitrogen in the presence of microbes of all types.
    And a koi pond, being outside is very exposed to all the species of nature and all the deposits of organics such as pollen and insects.

    So the simple image of Ammoina--- nitrIte ------- nitrAte is really not accurate in that it is simplistic.

    We have mineralization, nitrification, denitrification and intermediate steps both planned and interrupted releasing the classic inoganics but also byproducts and intermediates.
    If this is too detailed or technical some some, take a left over like a piece of fish, hard boiled egg and place it in a bucket at 74F and leave for two days. Then run off half the water and smell the remaining water-- it will not smell like ammonia-- far worse. JR
    LOL....sure will!

    Every week I am reminded how bad things can get. I use a discharge line for water changes that is separate from the filtration system. Water sits in that 40-foot line for a week at a time. When it is opened, the discharged waste water is distributed around the garden area near the pond. The hydrogen sulfide smell from the anaerobic water is very noticeable for the first minute or so and lingers in the air if there is no breeze. (I should flush that line more frequently.)

  9. #19
    Daihonmei
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    The " nose, knows"!

  10. #20
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    No hiding from the "nose" test . Even with a great pond, tailpipes from the waste line will get "ripe" after a day or two. My water "looks" good enough to drink. It "smell's" good enough to drink (as in not at all). It "tests" good enough to drink. I'm no Dainichi tho, so I'll leave it for the fish to swim in if its all the same to you guys

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