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Thread: FSGD and Color

  1. #11
    Jumbo RobF's Avatar
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    No vgue references, loose talk, excuses, or innuendo.

    Thanks Mike.

    Jake, there are no “Koi Geneticists”. Not only is there no money in it, koi, Cc, are tetraploids and don’t make a good model (see below).

    Brady, Certainly there is a great deal to learn from the study of “wild type” Cc. Unfortunately, like Balon says in his classic http://www.criticalimprov.com/index.php/gir/article/view/23/59 the wild type may not even exist anymore due to crosses with domestic strains and habitat loss. But a histological study of carp and koi skin and scale like: http://bulletin.piwet.pulawy.pl/archive/53-1/21_Kaleta.pdf would be very useful indeed!

    This thread is technical. As such it isn’t likely to get a lot of replies (I posted it you know where as well and it has gotten exactly zero)! Obviously, replies, comments, and questions are more than welcome. But any reply that purports to include “scientific facts” related to FSGD and or color is obliged to post it or a link to it. No vgue references, loose talk, excuses, or innuendo. Here post facts supported by third party written reference material that is available on line. Post a link to it or scan the document and attach it here or don’t bother. Like this (there that should kill this thread): Rob

    Since the genetics and coloration of the Zebrfish are better studied than Cyprinius carpio (koi) it is important from the scientific standpoint to understand how closely related the well studied genome of Zebrafish matches with that of Cc. Here is a paper that addresses this question (which also gets pretty deep in the middle). Here is a quote from that paper:

    “The zebrafish is a representative of the most abundant and widespread primary freshwater fish family, Cyprinidae [8,9] with ample genomic resources including a nearly fully sequenced genome and over a million expressed sequence tags (ESTs). However, genomic data for the rest of the cyprinids are quite scarce (for review see [10]), partly due to polyploidy that represents a characteristic feature of several members of the Cyprinidae family [11,12].

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1764476/pdf/1471-2105-7-S5-S2.pdf

  2. #12
    Sansai
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    Tetraploidy in Koi/Carp

    Hi Rob

    I was referring to the working Koi breeders/geneticists, both Japanese and US and worldwide, there is quite a working core of them, I have encountered a number of names that I would group with them, I dont know of any university chairs in the specialty but if there isnt I expect that there will be.

    There are more Carp family members that are tetraploid then not, the first one I have had real contact with was the Amur River Carp, back in the 70s, it was wrongly thought that being tetraploid that they wouldn't spawn in US waters, 'they' were wrong, also with the Bighead and Silver Carp.

    The dollar value of Koi has grown to where I am sure its only a short matter of time before there are chairs even at a number of universities. Just follow the money trail. I expect Mr Soon can come up with a number of reputable names in universities already not to mention breeders who are competent Koi Geneticists. I am also sure there are a number of folks on this list who are competent Koi Geneticists although they may not count themselves as such.

    One of my first animal science profs said something that I have long remembered, " an expert in animal breeding is someone who knows more then you do, learn what they know, and teach others, thats how experts are made".
    Jake Levi
    Oswego, NY

    We are all in this together

  3. #13
    Daihonmei
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    JAKE, do you take drugs?

  4. #14
    Daihonmei
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    Let me see if I can slip this in here and see what gets absorbed---

    Koi are nishikigoi, created in Japan, in a small area of Japan known as Niigata.
    They emerged from four basic common caro races that throw morphs and mutations.
    They were isolated and interbred. And then line breed with an emphasis on their recessive mutation traits.
    The first rule of genetics will tell you that ONCE a gene pool is isolate it can never be exactly the same as the main gene pool every again. Think about that and absorb it-- pure breed dogs can never become the wolves, jackels that they arose from.

    The Japanese KNOW where the mutations arose- it is documented and even followed in sketchings and painted examples as well as a 'family tree' of koi.
    They also had a careful and deliberate breeding program to move each new stabilized mutation into the other varieties. So we see a careful and deliberate regional program to introduce hikari into each breed, and to introduce ginrin into each breed. But before this all came four key mutations that started the entire thing. And these mutations are RECESSIVE. I'm sure you know what that means so I won't risk insulting by explaining.
    This by the way, this inbreeding of mutation, is what lead to fish getting weaker and smaller and why , beyond the marketing, outcross to dominate genes was experimented with all along the way to gain 'jumboism and vigor/hardiness. But that is a generational set back as they all return to the recessive gene for the phenotype.

    Anything? Anything yet? Anything at all in the way of a light bulb going on? JR

  5. #15
    Tategoi andy's Avatar
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    Very interesting.although a way above my head. If only someone could reduce it to plain english.............


    My question then.....

    Kohaku:

    A Beni that holds true and deep throught the life of the fish VS. a beni that begins to show signs of fading and braking appart........Is it the result of better gene pool and therefore a higher quality Koi when evaluated?

  6. #16
    Sansai
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    Lightbulb of drugs, and cabbages and kings



    just legal vits Jasper.

    Not sure if the last line above is to me, or no, but assuming it is rest assured all lights and systems are go for some time. And as a real time near ancestor of yours I read of the four original lines long ago, and in my way of figuring those folks who did the work were real time working geneticists, as are those folks who continue the work today. It doesnt take holding a university chair to be a real Koi geneticist, which is one point I wanted to make, obviously didnt, but fwiw, I think we are on the right paths of working geneticists in the hobby and industry. Poultry hobby has gone on longer then Koi breeding, and most of the real work has been done and maintained by hobbyists/breeders, not universities. Their work has focused on population genetics far more then breed characteristics.

    Fwiw, I am very much for controlled outcrosses done by knowledgeable people to correct/alleviate inbreeding depression. Of which I hardly consider myself one. I am just getting acquainted now with the Japanese lines, meanwhile learning what I can of the US lines, and their origins.

    So, take a deep breath and count to 5 million, and then you might be pleasantly surprised what I have absorbed, or not, the world will still go its merry way whatever.

    Cheers, enjoy, keep the good stuff flowing,

    my name is jake

  7. #17
    Daihonmei
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    Just joking with you Jake, But honestly, koi in America is actually going down rather than coming up. The sales of fish is higher but the quality aspect is going lower and lower and so are the prices. In that process, the VALUE for $$$ spent, is much lower than say even five years ago.
    I seriously doubt we will have university departments following koi genetics any time soon ! The simpliest reason is SIZE. And therefore facility needed to do such experiments. My friend Boris is the only one I know of and he is doing this because he has a dozen plus years of this research under his belt while in Israel.
    I hate to break this to Rob, but the zebra fish, like the drosophila melanogaster fly and white mouse and lowly pea are all used because they can 'prove' classic genetiic combinations and are very easy to work with, reproduce/map and house. In fact, if you cruise the professional lab equipment providers you will see banks of experimental grow out tank specificaaly made to house zebra fish- a wild type fish that breds easily and freely, has a short generation span, is an egg scatterer and is hardy.

    I also need to point out something else- some of the best information about mutation genetics is NOT found in Universities. It is found among the amateur breeders of the world . Many of which happen to be genetists by trade. Case in point is the founder and past president of the Betta society who is a professional reseacher ( Dr. Gene Lucus) and I assure you, knows more than ANY academic about betta genetics and mutations.
    Another is Dr. Joanne Norton also a genetic reseacher who created the high fin platy and knows more than any human on the planet about live bearer genetics.
    Food for thought. JR

  8. #18
    Daihonmei
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    Hi Andy, not over your head. I just am introducing an abbreviated version as it would take a serious long thread to get a full picture. I'm currently doing a lecture on the subject if you get a chance to see it at one of your meetings or a show that I'm at.

    As for the unstability of beni check out the post I made over on NI this morning about beni and stability. JR

  9. #19
    Tategoi andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Hi Andy, not over your head. I just am introducing an abbreviated version as it would take a serious long thread to get a full picture. I'm currently doing a lecture on the subject if you get a chance to see it at one of your meetings or a show that I'm at.

    As for the unstability of beni check out the post I made over on NI this morning about beni and stability. JR
    I'm afraid not familiar with NI...help...is it Nichirin?

  10. #20
    Daihonmei
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    well this is a little tacky as KOI BITO and NISHIKIGOI INTERNATIONAL were once two of the best Competing koi magazines on the market I'm sure that one reference isn't going to change eitehr of their circulation numbers that this point as neither are magazine sights any more! Nishikigoi International JR

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