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Thread: FSGD and Color

  1. #21
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy View Post
    I'm afraid not familiar with NI...help...is it Nichirin?
    Moning, Jorge . . .

    He's referring to Nigel Caddock's Nishikigoi International (NI) forum out of England:

    Nishikigoi International

    As you'll see, it's an old-time board with some serious posters and flavor all its own.

    Best wishes,

  2. #22
    Sansai
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    university seats and the price of rice in China

    Hi Jasper

    humor is what keeps us from running screaming into the night. Use it right and you can make the other guy run screaming into the night.

    I dont expect to see any university chairs in Koi research just because of the lack of endowments, so, the serious Koi genetics will comtinue to be with breeders and hobbyists.,

    I have exchanged many emails with Gene before finally meeting him, also knew Joanne, a great lady who introduced many people into the wonderful world of livebearing fish, and wrote many of the seminal papers and books on them, sadly she has gone over the bridge.

    Good koi will remain high enough to merit raising them, and pond fish will bring pond fish prices. I hope the US will be able to support more then 3-4 premium breeders, time will tell.

    jake

    we are all in this together
    Jake Levi
    Oswego, NY

    We are all in this together

  3. #23
    Jumbo RobF's Avatar
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    Scale transplantation and color

    Andy, There really isn’t an answer to the fading beni question, but most people would say yes the genealogy of a koi is an indicator of stable beni. This makes sense, but let’s just say there is no double blind study that verifies it (and so as an assertion has no place in this thread). This is especially true since the adaptive advantage of fish skin color (as they have chosen to do it) isn’t all that clear (see previous references in thread).
    But check out this funny paper from the 1930s and what it says about color stability (goldfish are Cc’s closest cousin): http://www.biolbull.org/cgi/reprint/65/2/253.pdf
    And as to the references you see elsewhere in this thread to old pictures and writings that supposedly exist but are never shown says a lot, but it says nothing about color.

  4. #24
    Sansai
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    studies

    Hi Rob

    it really shouldnt be too hard to set up a study like this, doesnt have to be huge, several hundred of each, and grow them out. An easy project for a small grower.

    Why not?

    Jake

  5. #25
    Oyagoi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Levi View Post
    Hi Jasper

    humor is what keeps us from running screaming into the night. Use it right and you can make the other guy run screaming into the night.

    I dont expect to see any university chairs in Koi research just because of the lack of endowments, so, the serious Koi genetics will comtinue to be with breeders and hobbyists.,

    I have exchanged many emails with Gene before finally meeting him, also knew Joanne, a great lady who introduced many people into the wonderful world of livebearing fish, and wrote many of the seminal papers and books on them, sadly she has gone over the bridge.

    Good koi will remain high enough to merit raising them, and pond fish will bring pond fish prices. I hope the US will be able to support more then 3-4 premium breeders, time will tell.

    jake

    we are all in this together
    Funny comment above. The "US" cannot support any koi breeders concentrating on high quality koi. These people are supported by fortunes, self made in some cases, inherited or married into by others, but fortunes all the same, and NONE of them came from breeding koi. Nealry all the Japanese breeders made fortunes one way or another prior to becoming koi breeders. Either in other businesses, through land holdings, or in ways not related to breeding koi. Even those few that actually metamorphed from rice through fish to eat and eventually to koi had the good fortune of thier property, which in Japan is sold by the "tsubo" about 10 square feet. In some places land vales exceeds one million dollars per tsubo, or about $100,000 per square foot.

    Add to that the Japanese farm subsidy program (to the Japanese the production of rice is a matter of self defense), and enough money to play koi becomes available to a farmer whether you sell any koi or not.

    While I never did develop a strain of koi to carry my name, I am known amongst aquaculturists for developing strains of blue catfish (Ictaluris furcatus) and largemouth bass (Micropterus salmoides) to fit their specific purposes. Ever heard of somebody breeding bass that are selected for catchability? If so it was me you heard of.

    You will find precious few large scale animal breeders practicing much in the way of genetics. Mostly, as in large fish farms and hatcheries, they are interests in a lot of animals over a few good ones. SOME koi breeders are an exception.

    Back in the day when catfish farms were breeding by default and by expedience, I worked very hard at breeding for particualr traits. Rapid growth, small gut and head (good dress out percentage), early spawning, etc. etc. Its a long story, but suffice it to say that breeding by design provides better results than breeding by default.

    Koi have been cloned, and there was a time when folks thought you could "clone a GC and get all GC babies." That was never true and had been proven a fallacy in other animal cloning projects.

    Years and years ago I had several papers on koi genetics translated from Russian. Somewhat interesting, it only involved the study of solid colored koi, nothing to do with patterned koi.

    More recently I worked with a geneticist and we managed to take a lot of records and gain a lot of confusing data. There is at least a small amount of correlation between the patterns of koi (in the same breed) and those of thier parents. But it is a weak correlation. We never got to "cross a three step with a two step and get mostly two and three step patterns." Nothing so conclusive was forthcoming from our efforts. Koi genetics is extremely complex.

    If koi were cows, sheep, pigs, dogs, horses, chickens or any other valuable and more mainstream animal, there would be university chairs out the yin yang. They are not, and I doubt we'll see a rush to study koi genetics.

    Bett
    Brett

  6. #26
    Sansai
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    animal genetics

    Hi Brett

    are you having a bad day??

    I can give you any number of large animal breeding establishments with major breeding operations and investments in them, google 'holstein breeding advances'.

    Your post was kind of open ended and I didnt find a particular gist. No I dont expect to see any university chairs in Koi , as I mentioned above,

    large breeding operations have for a very long time been done by wealthy people, long before Bakefield and the Kings and Queens of the world, they have contributed a great deal and we are further along in every livestock endeavor. May their tribe increase!

    Meanwhile hobby breeders will continue as we have for millenia.

  7. #27
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Levi View Post
    ...
    I can give you any number of large animal breeding establishments with major breeding operations and investments in them, google 'holstein breeding advances'.
    ...
    Ahh but Jake, there is the disconnect.
    Being an old FFA'er myself I remember doing genetic mapping on cattle, pigs, sheep, etc... way back when. Long before genome mapping on any level such as we have now was even a realistic goal.
    Lay out the genetic "grid" of recessive and dominant traits for virtually anything and everything from hair color, straight or curly, fat/lean meat yield, yadayadayada. We'd run sire/dam grids to predict with tremendous accuracy the kind of offspring we would get from any given pair.
    That was livestock.
    Nishikigoi are not that cooperative.
    There is simply too much about their genetics that is up for grabs as the indeterminate nature of their dna just does not play well with the science of the moment. What we "do" know is that we "cannot" know much beyond what the breeders have gleaned intuitively...yet.
    Buncha dumb-ass rice farmers breeding Koi leading science toward the truth, and the smart scientists are the ones who do not discount their experiences. Before there was genetic mapping, it was a bunch of dumb-ass cattle ranchers who led science toward the truth that mapping the genome finally caught up with... Pisses people like Rob off to no end, and that is why he "forbids" any mention of their experience into the conversation. They know more than all of his pet googlerific papers can reveal, and the inconvenience of that is more than he can bear.
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

  8. #28
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Levi View Post
    Hi Brett

    are you having a bad day??
    Actually, Jake, I thought his post rather sage.

    He started by fleshing out from personal experience the old saw: How to make a million breeding koi? Start by investing two million . . .

    Without the personal/familial fortunes that have helped such as Quality Koi and Purdin ride out economic and climatic disasters, Brett's seen his shoe-string koi breeding operation succumb after many years. No koi for sale at Brett's Fish Farm this year.

    Then he touched on the compexity of the nishikigoi Punnett Square.

    Finally, he closed with his 'koi ain't cattle' logic as to why there's no rush to fund chairs in koi genetics.

    What's not to love about one of Brett's rambles?
    Don Chandler
    Member: AKCA, ZNA, KoiUSA

  9. #29
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    These posts continue to circle. JR, Brett, Papabear, KoiCop have all summed up some. Time to move the conversation forward.

    No need for a rigorous, systematic scientific study relating to a beni study loss, colour inheritance or the googling habits of a koi keeper. Nor is their the need for a published paper to make for credibility. Many years of breeder and growing experiences in Japan, the US, UK and dare I say Australia have produced thousands of observations and enough anecdotal evidence.

  10. #30
    Sansai
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    Fun thread

    The one thing that you sages are leaving out of your picture is that the Koi breeders are working with population dynamics with a multitude of variables due to the numbers per breeding within which the successful and the great breeders use intense culling, something not done to the same degree with the much smaller progeny numbers of conventional livestock breeding.

    Results are achievable, but inverse to the complexity of the patterns being bred, Ogon and Kohaku somewhat simpler to achieve then Showa then Sanke and on..........

    Factor these in and you have a great number of variables, in some patterns it is near mind boggling, and some of us have easier minds to boggle then others, to make a long story short, we are in the infancy of successful selection compared to selection in cattle populations, we are on the interesting side of the Bell Curve, time to really start enjoying the task, whats not to love?

    enjoy !

    jake

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